It's wet in Red Rock(s)

Title is all-inclusive to appease both sides of the name war.

It has been wet, damp, and cloudy in Red Rock for nearly a week straight.  Recorded rain at the RR weather station is for a singular data point.  Multiple reports coming in of substantial mud and wet rock in the canyons.  The decorative stone in my backyard is still wet and I only got 10% of the RR weather station.

That datapoint is 0.5".  Now for you east-coasties, you're going to think that's inconsequential.  But our average rain fall for the year is ~4", and this is not the bulletproof sandstone of the Red or New that you're used to.  Basically a few steps up from solidified mud.

This is your friendly reminder to wait 24-72 hours (of preferably sunny weather) to climb the fragile sandstone.  FYI, we're getting ANOTHER round of rain tonight into Thursday.  We might see the sun again on Friday.

It's not just hold that can break; your cams and nuts can rip out too.

"But where am I going to climb while on my vacation!?!?!?" Limestone or granite.  For limestone, pick up the Mojave Limestone guidebook which has way more info than Mountain Project.  For granite, consider Joshua Tree.

Consider skiing up at Lee Canyon
Visit Valley of Fire (they don't allow climbing there, anyway, so you won't be tempted)
Visit the Hoover Dam
Do some research to visit some hot springs in the area
Check out the Arts District (and in particular, the many fine microbreweries in the area)

We were just there over New Years. Even when it wasn't raining, it was cold, damp, and windy - and that was on the Strip.

Will it be climbable on saturday? Assuming it doesn’t rain anymore until then..

Charlie S wrote:

This is your friendly reminder to wait 24-72 hours (of preferably sunny weather) to climb the fragile sandstone.

There is no science that supports this recommendation. Just because that is what is out there, everyone repeats it without question.

The Aztec sandstone is a porous rock. When it rains, water is absorbed past the surface and into the rock. The depth of moisture is a variable and depends on the duration and intensity of the rain. Also add the frequency of every 2-4 days and it can be wet internally for several inches or even feet. 

When the sandstone gets wet, the bond that turns sand into rock breaks down. It becomes soft and crumbly. Holds break. Gear rips. This is not Red River Gorge or Maple Cyn.

When it stops raining, the surface dries immediately, and everyone thinks "Oh, it's dry, let's climb!" or "Look, there are climbers up there, it must be okay!"

But the inside is still wet, still trying to perspire out. Couple low temps with high humidity and this drying out period can be days or weeks. Maybe in the summer, when temps are hi and humidity is low, will the 24-72 hours hold up. But only in the summer.

Once the moisture perspires out entirely, over days or weeks, then that bond that turns sand into rock can begin to reform. It needs to bake to really regain its strength. Again, several days to a week or two. 

This might all make sense when you read it, but it can also seem too uncertain, complex, confusing, or difficult to apply, especially given people arrive here on a sunny day, after several days of rain, and think "great weather, let's go climbing!" So a reliable, simple rule of thumb should be: There needs to be 2-3 inches of dry sand at the base of the crags to insure the climbs have re-baked back into solid rock. Even on sunny days, there could be wet sand at the base of crags from rain the day before, which means the rock inside is still wet. Throw out the nebulous 24-whatever hours suggestion, and go with something simple and accurate, 2-3 inches of dry sand at the base of the crags to insure the climbs have re-baked back into solid rock. 

Dan Young

@ Desert Rock Sports via D Young,

Thank you for the extended commentary and description.  Rules of thumb eventually break down, but I like your alternative to the time frame.

I will say that in many cases, I've seen wet sand on approaches and in gullies but the climbable rocks have been fine (e.g. Pine Creek Canyon approach was wet weeks after a rain).  So people need to be able to distinguish between gullies that funnel all the water for a vast swath of land, and their specific rock of choice.  I think your criteria specifies that well, though, by looking specifically at the base of the climb.

Visiting Vegas this weekend / next week. Looking at the forecast and seeing potential rain. Was thinking about Mt Potosi, specifically Cactus Joe, but I heard it's 10-15 degrees cooler than Red Rock (and also someone said there's snow?). Anyone have some insight for me? Thanks!

Lauren Errichiello wrote:

Visiting Vegas this weekend / next week. Looking at the forecast and seeing potential rain. Was thinking about Mt Potosi, specifically Cactus Joe, but I heard it's 10-15 degrees cooler than Red Rock (and also someone said there's snow?). Anyone have some insight for me? Thanks!

Cactus joe faces South and isn't high enough to get much notable snowfall usually.  Even if it did it will melt right away once we get some sun.  As long as there is sun out you should be fine to climb there even if it's rather cold.  I've climbed in the low 40s in a t shirt here when the sun is out and had some days in the 50s on the brass wall that felt like a furnace next to the wall.  That being said, this weekend and into next week looks like all rain.

Cactus Joes approach can sometimes have snow, but the wall itself gets a lot of sun and should be fine.

I poked around the Calico area this afternoon (Thursday) and it's very clearly still wet. There is no dry sand whatsoever, much less 2-3 inches.

Lauren Errichiello wrote:

Visiting Vegas this weekend / next week. Looking at the forecast and seeing potential rain. Was thinking about Mt Potosi, specifically Cactus Joe, but I heard it's 10-15 degrees cooler than Red Rock (and also someone said there's snow?). Anyone have some insight for me? Thanks!

Whoever said there was snow at potosi most likely was looking at either the clear light cave area or sleepy hollow.  Cactus joes is an all day sun oven.  The 6500 ft level forecast here is reasonably accurate for potosi climbing mountain-forecast.com/peaks…

Spread the word, Red Rock(s) is closed for the season.  Too much rain, it'll never dry out...

Really surprised by the number of people out climbing completely saturated sandstone.  All, if we can't police and control ourselves, some agency is going to do it for us and make it hurt more.

Somebody asked about tech data earlier.  A literature review summarized ~40% reduction in compressive strength with saturated sandstone, and a 63% reduction in tensile strength!  Hey guess what, your trad protection relies on the compressive strength, and those bolts you clip rely on both the compressive and tensile strength of the sandstone:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11440-015-0407-7#Sec9

And another paper with this graph of strength loss in sandstone due to saturation:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10064-022-02822-9

Update: Red Rock is CLOSED.

Sorry for everyone who planned a visit but this weekend is going to have to be limestone only.  Enjoy a nice sunny day at the BD cave or somewhere like that.  It poured here on Monday and Tuesday (the loop got shut down due to unsafe driving conditions one day), then we got a nice day of sun yesterday only to get more rain and snow today.  Even two days of sun isn't going to be good enough to dry out areas by Sunday with how much rain we've had in the past week.  The 24-48 hours guideline breaks down in cold, wet winters like what we're having now, so you don't get that excuse if you're still trying to climb and actually care about the ethic here.

Video of snow at the visitors center today but will probably still be people out there climbing tomorrow fb.watch/i9JnLvaekd/?mibext…

Ignore these local gate keepers. You can see there is no snow on pitches 3-6 of Dogma. Should be good to go. 

What would you say about climbing in Red Rock now? It's been pretty wet recently and rain is forecasted this coming week. Have a trip planned Feb. 9th to the 13th. Thanks!

Julia B wrote:

What would you say about climbing in Red Rock now? It's been pretty wet recently and rain is forecasted this coming week. Have a trip planned Feb. 9th to the 13th. Thanks!

Very hard to tell ahead of time since the forecast can change quite a bit, but it's not looking great for next weekend.  I would make a solid bet that you would have to climb limestone for at least a few days.  If it clears up by the weekend you could definitely get in a few days of sandstone at sunny, south facing cliffs towards the end of your trip.

What about this weekend? I'm wondering if I should even pack my shoes in case I can get a quick sesh sun morning. (In the event the rain forecast pushes back Sun)

Any boots on the ground know if it rained this morning? This afternoon and Sat enough to dry?

I'm not a local, so no I don't have boots on the ground, but Clark County has publicly available rain gauge data here: https://gustfront.ccrfcd.org/gagemap/gagemap.html

Gauge 4324 is located near the visitor center. It is reporting 0.55" of rain in the early hours of this morning. The number next to the teal dot is rainfall in the last 24 hours (0.79").

I won't be your wet rock police, just want to share the resource. 

Matt Rebong wrote:

What about this weekend? I'm wondering if I should even pack my shoes in case I can get a quick sesh sun morning. (In the event the rain forecast pushes back Sun)

Any boots on the ground know if it rained this morning? This afternoon and Sat enough to dry?

Extremely wet in Summerlin with lots more precipitation on the way. Sandstone is out for the next week at least.

Thanks!

Thank you for the insightful responses!