Probably dumb question/idea about ice tool design concept

I've never ice climbed so it's not as obvious to me as it probably is to you why you wouldn't want to do this: what if you had an ice tool that instead of being an axe, was a pick that was held like a peg to climb the way you would a peg board, with it firmly attached to your wrist with a rigid structure?

In case I'm not explaining it well, imagine you had a very short straight ice axe that you held the head of in your hand with the shaft strapped to your wrist.

Has anyone experimented with something like this? You can't hit the ice as hard without the big swing, so I don't know if you'd be able to get good enough purchase. Also can't reach as far so I imagine it would not work for overhanging ice. 

Maybe for mixed climbing in some situations it could be useful? Advantages are it is less unwieldy, and a rotating mechanism could allow easy switching between using the tool and one's hand (some use of hand even with handle in way since it won't fall if you let go). It may also allow for a more intuitive style of climbing. Less shoulder intensive, but maybe more pulling intensive if arm ends up being more bent.

If you look at Ueli Steck on Eiger speed record, he is holding ice tools near head and is not placing them with much force. On that sort of climb, I think the design I'm describing might feel more secure both in preventing and arresting a fall.

Edit: found a related thread: mountainproject.com/forum/t…

Michael C wrote:

I've never ice climbed 

Ice climbing is awesome! Go try some steep ice and think about all the forces involved. Then buy some Nomics

Ice daggers had a brief popularity in the late 1960s. They required wrists of steel. However, the realisation that plunging the dagger at a downwards angle was more secure than horizontally lead directly to the development of dropped pick axes by Hamish MacInnes and Yvon Chouinard. With their Terrordactyl and Zero respectively, daggers became redundant.

Ice daggers

http://www.smhc.co.uk/objects_item.asp?item_id=32360

http://www.smhc.co.uk/objects_item.asp?item_id=31844

MacInnes' Terrordactyls

The first dropped-pick ice tools, essentially a dagger on a stick.

Interesting. Didn't know about the ice daggers. Two big issues with those separately from angles is you need to use a lot of strength to keep it from sliding out of your hand when striking, and a ton of work to hold onto it.

So I guess it's a sort of hybrid forearm anchored axe dagger I'm envisioning. A bit like x-men wolverine if the claws came out at a 90 degree angle, but then angle downward slightly.

It's certainly less work on the forearm since compared to the ice axe you do not need to flick your wrist, and you do not need to make an effort to hold on. Is the forearm not the limiting factor like with rock?

Michael C wrote:

Interesting. Didn't know about the ice daggers. Two big issues with those separately from angles is you need to use a lot of strength to keep it from sliding out of your hand when striking, and a ton of work to hold onto it.

So I guess it's a sort of hybrid forearm anchored axe dagger I'm envisioning. A bit like x-men wolverine if the claws came out at a 90 degree angle, but then angle downward slightly.

It's certainly less work on the forearm since compared to the ice axe you do not need to flick your wrist, and you do not need to make an effort to hold on. Is the forearm not the limiting factor like with rock?

You ever swing a hammer? Or a sledgehammer? Knowing how to use the tool so the tool does the work is how to use the least energy. Swinging an ice tool is not at all what you must be imagining. You don't need to make "an effort to hold on" either, there's a bit for your hand to rest on, and just enough grip to stay there. The length and curve of ice climbing tools is what does most of the work. 

Get out with someone and take a shot at it. It's fun! Anyone who's willing to try, can try out ice climbing on a top rope. It's leading ice that needs experience, judgement, and skill. As much as you get to look seriously badass, you don't actually need to be a badass. But don't tell!

Best, Helen

Edit to add, you might also want to envision tumbling in space with a dagger strapped to your arm. 

Add #2, or go find an atlatl to play with, to understand the power of a long handle! That's the best analogy I can think of. A spear thrower multiplies what your body can do, and very impressively, vs just poking at the mammoth with your sharpened stick.

Check out this articled by Dougald MacDonald. Search for "ice dagger bullshit" to find the relevant section.

Michael C wrote:

It's certainly less work on the forearm since compared to the ice axe you do not need to flick your wrist, and you do not need to make an effort to hold on. Is the forearm not the limiting factor like with rock?

Aside from the time needed to learn the correct technique for swinging an ice tool, the flick is not a strenuous exercise. Additionally, with modern bent shaft tools, especially with a good glove and grip tape combo, holding on to the tool takes very little energy - you have perfectly hand-sized jugs to hold on to, and 'peeling off' due to forearm/hand fatigue is most often not a limiting factor. 

On the cover of Aron Ralston's book ' between a rock and hard place' shows Aron with a Trango Madame Hook bolted to the remainder of his arm after it was craushed by a rock.

It would be interesting to know how well that worked,

Mp won't allow me to load a photo of the book cover.