Steep jugging technique

To start off, for the purpose this thread, let's ignore anything involving chest or foot ascenders. I know PTPP is already disappointed.

When and how does your jugging technique change when the angle goes from slab, to vertical, to overhanging?
Is it a gradual or discrete change?
What is your steep jugging technique? What is "steep"? Is there a difference between vertical and free-hanging?

I initially watched all of Chris Mac's videos and they made sense and feel good to me. For steep terrain he shows only using 1 ladder.
In my limited experience it feels efficient to make a discrete switch to this style when I can no longer balance in my ladders with minimal arm engagement. So maybe 85 degrees?

Yet also in my limited experience I've basically never seen anybody else actually jug like this. Usually I see people sticking to the slab technique and locking off with their biceps. Or possibly once I saw both ladders on the bottom jug.

So what's the deal? Is there any modern consensus here? Or is it all personal preference and I should just experiment and find what I like?

One ladder, but the second is on my harness ready to deploy for when angles change. I think The most important thing is getting your daisy chain length to the upper ascender perfect. I also stuff both my feet in the same ladder rung and find it helps me a bit. 

"I think The most important thing is getting your daisy chain length to the upper ascender perfect"

This.  Unquestionably the key to steep jugging (assuming you're using the regular big wall style and not some funky caving setup)

When and how does your jugging technique change when the angle goes from slab, to vertical, to overhanging?

I try to maintain the slab technique as long as I possibly can, as it's by far the most efficient way to go.  Keep your chest as close to the rope as possible, jut your elbows forward, lean your head forward to the side of the rope, anything you can do to keep your weight forward.

I practiced this and refined my technique by setting up a fixed line on a cliff that had a slab for about 2/3 of the height, then kicked back to overhanging for the top 1/3.  That way, as you go higher and higher, the rope gets gradually steeper and steeper until at a certain point you end up fully free hanging.  Challenge yourself to maintain slab technique as high as you possibly can.  I've never broken out a protractor or anything, but I bet I can slab technique to within a few degrees of vertical, but definitely not on dead vertical.

When you can no longer maintain slab technique, then switch to your overhanging technique, which for me is basically a Texas style jumar technique with 2 ladders.

Is it a gradual or discrete change?

It's a discrete change.  I, however, leave my ladders in the same position and same ladder rungs as I do for slab technique (I actually don't use ladders, I use webbing with tied foot loops designed to fit my proportions, but for nomenclature conformity, I'll call them "ladders").

The benefits I see of this system are that I can swap back and forth between techniques as the terrain varies without faffing around with your gear.  Also, you get to use both legs to push your weight upward.  You do need to develop good arm/leg coordination when lifting the upper ascender, because you have to lift that leg simultaneously.

Refinements to this technique for efficiency are: set your upper daisy chain to just the right length.  I prefer a bit on the long side so I can take monster strides.  The starting position is with the ascenders very close together, arms nearly straight, legs tucked up trying to keep the rope tight to your crotch.  Initiate torso movement by pushing with both legs and pulling with both arms.  Spread the work out evenly between your 4 limbs.  Keep your body tight to the rope then push hard with your legs as you rise.  At the apogee, pop that upper jumar up as high as you can, snapping the upper daisy taut so the downward sag of your center of mass is minimized.  The motion dynamic is very similar to a double dyno.

Compared to slab technique, this is waaaaay more strenuous.  If my feet can reach the wall, I'll usually press my left toe against the wall to stabilize and help push a bit.  This makes it a little less tiring, but it still sucks.

Thanks Sam, that's exactly what I was looking for. But what is your 2nd leg doing in the ladder though? Do you just keep it there to make the transition between techniques easier? Otherwise I don't understand how keeping in in there could help anything.

Both feet in the same rung seems interesting too. I've never tried having my right foot in anything. Maybe it's worth trying.

Austin Donisanwrote:

Thanks Sam, that's exactly what I was looking for. But what is your 2nd leg doing in the ladder though? Do you just keep it there to make the transition between techniques easier? Otherwise I don't understand how keeping in in there could help anything.

By the 2nd ladder I'm guessing you mean the ladder attached to the top jumar.

That leg is pushing hard to accelerate my body upward, same as my other 3 limbs.

Sam Skovgaardwrote:

By the 2nd ladder I'm guessing you mean the ladder attached to the top jumar.

That leg is pushing hard to accelerate my body upward, same as my other 3 limbs.

Interesting. So you drive off of it initially and then mid-movement bring it up.

Maybe I'll try it out sometime, but it really does seem impossible to get your center of mass over your feet like that.

Austin Donisanwrote:

Interesting. So you drive off of it initially and then mid-movement bring it up.

Maybe I'll try it out sometime, but it really does seem impossible to get your center of mass over your feet like that.

You never do get your center of mass directly over your feet, but the closer you can get the rope to your crotch as you initiate movement, the more work gets done by the legs and less pulling with the arms is required.

Until I typed out that treatise above I hadn't realized the similarities between it and the double dyno, but it's a really good analogy.  The power mostly comes from the legs, the arm pull aims the body (and assist in movement initiation).  When dyno-ing, if you don't pull with the arms, you end up shooting backwards away from the wall.  And obviously double dynoing with only one foot isn't going to be as effective.

All of these subtleties in my method are aimed at getting really long strides on overhanging terrain.  When I'm doing slab technique, I actually find shorter, stair-height strides the most efficient.

If anyone has figured out an approach for overhanging/vertical technique which involves short, rapid, efficient strides, I would love to hear about it.

Austin Donisanwrote:

Interesting. So you drive off of it initially and then mid-movement bring it up.

Maybe I'll try it out sometime, but it really does seem impossible to get your center of mass over your feet like that.

Not the world's best jugger, but I end up doing a fair amount from time to time, so grain of salt and all that...

Even when free hanging, you still want to try and get your center of mass over your feet as much as possible. This ensures you're pushing yourself up as you straighten your legs instead of directing the energy into lateral movement that doesn't get you any higher. In practice this is something like sitting directly over your foot as you stand up (if you're in a high step in the ladder, your butt cheek might be touching your heel). 

Like others, I tend to use one ladder on the steep. I keep a carabiner on the bottom rung of my top jug ladder and just clip it to the side of my harness so it stays out of the way and doesn't snag as I'm ascending. When transitioning back to slab technique, I just unclip the carabiner, insert foot, and keep cranking. If I can reach the wall, my free foot is maintaining my relative position on the wall and/or stepping up on whatever foothold might be available. If my leg gets tired, I will keep everything else the same and just swap which leg I'm using to stand up.

On the steeps, I also try to be conscious of my hand position to avoid using my arms too much. For example, on the upper jug, I try to have my hand mostly underneath the jug, pushing up on it (instead of pulling down on it) with just my smallest 3 fingers engaging the grip. On my lower jug, sometimes I'll just grab around the top of the entire jug to bring it up. Changing grips often in small ways helps me keep up the speed and minimize fatigue (such as when heading up a fixed line without the interruptions of cleaning gear).

If the rope is free hanging- I always put both ladders on the bottom ascender.. a slight scissor kick let’s you center feet under your mass.. 

following steep leads- I just keep the ladders one on each ascender 

The sit–stand methods I have tried with a rock climbing harness all feel inefficient.  Staying upright on the rope and making small alternating steps, sitting only to rest, is less tiring even though I have to use my arms to stay close to the rope.  I keep both hands on the upper ascender and use a bungee to advance a floating ascender for the other foot.  This requires neither a Pantin strapped to one foot nor a caving chest harness.  The pace and form I emulate is 3:31 in this video but moving both arms together.  I do not take the large and fast steps shown immediately thereafter as that would exhaust me.

Disappointed?  I'm grabbing my popcorn.

And yet again ... for like the 25th time in 25 years - this old fart Sexy Sexagenarian will challenge ANY of you Young Bull Bulging Bicep Whippersnappers to a jugging contest up 60m of free-hanging rope, whereby the YB uses the standard Yosemite jugging system of two handled ascenders and two aid ladders vs. the Dr. Piton Super-Secret Free Hanging Jugging Method [read HOOKING UP - The Ultimate Big Wall and Aid Climbing Manual].

A 2-4 of beer? A nice bottle of Amador County Barbera? Name your stake, I'm there.

Response for last quarter-century:

{crickets}

Seriously!  Now's your chance!  I'm old, fat, unfit, hasbeen neverbeen wannabe!  I'll be on El Cap September and October.  Find me in the meadow! 

Pete you are using frog with Pantin, right?

Frog with CMI ankle ascender, which is far superior to the Pantin.  I know some cavers love the Pantin because you can kick it off, which the precise reason I can't stand the thing. The CMI ankle ascender has a far more secure attachment and provides way more support than the Pantin, and has a cam that stays closed like a regular ascender. 

Peter Zabrokwrote:

Frog with CMI ankle ascender, which is far superior to the Pantin.

That is not light.  Have you compared the CT Quick Step and determined that the CMI is worth twice the weight, or only the Pantin?

I had tons of fun this spring at Looking Glass in NC on Glass Menagerie, which I aid-soloed in a self-fashioned "siege style" i.e. I'd rap down at night and sleep comfortably in the Subaru. I saved the last pitch for the final day, which meant ascending over 120m of free-hanging fixed lines (my 60m haul line and 70m lead line) frog style early that morning. Used a Pantin (gingerly), which was fine. The rope climbing was almost effortless, like riding a squat-propelled elevator into the sky. I can't imagine doing that yos-style. Thanks Pete!

Hey Andy,

Glad you figured out the Better Way. Any fool can be uncomfortable.

Webfoot,

I have not tried the CT Quick Step so I can't comment. Yup, the CMI is pretty big and heavy, but it's secure and it's comfortable. But if the CT fits somewhere in between the CMI and the Petzl Pantin, then it could be the Better Way.

Of course, the Better Way is whatever works best for you. 

Stepping away from foot ascenders for a moment, anyone have a video of this scissor kick method?

Sam Skovgaardwrote:

Stepping away from foot ascenders for a moment, anyone have a video of this scissor kick method?

I would like to see that too.  I have only seen it done with one foot on the wall like this.

The Flamenco Method

Christopher Chuwrote:

The Flamenco Method

Ok, I'm officially amazed.  A bit hard to see, but tell me if this is right:

1)foot ascender on his left foot

2)some sort of mini ascender with a 3' long foot sling on his right foot

3) left hand moves the mini ascender up

4) right hand maintains upright position by reaching overhead

What kind of black magic allows that foot ascender to move up the rope with no rope-weight hanging below it?