Taz Luv3 Issue

Has anyone had this happen or know of why this occurred? I absolutely loved this piece of equipment but this makes me hesitant to trust it further.  I would appreciate some feedback. Thank you!   

1. As I was TRSing I had noticed several times throughout the day that the device was acting weird and slipping a bit but not to the extent as it did the final time. 

2. I slipped approximately 5 feet down the rope before it popped and engaged. And it engaged as I was self arresting with my break hand.  

3. I am not 100% sure if my analysis is correct but I am completely sure that the device didn’t engage while I was pulling up slack and then I saw something on it pop and it finally caught me.  

4. The device is less than a year old and has never had anything out of the ordinary happen to it.  It hasn’t been dropped or torqued in any way.  

5. I jumped off of a boulder dozens of times and it engaged every time I jumped.  I haven’t been able to definitively reproduce the failure.  I am just assuming what happened on the route was the lever handle catching on the body.  I plan to do some tests in my tree soon to see if I can reproduce it.  

6. I was developing a route and I needed to be able to go up and down easily so I didn't have a backup device.

7. I did have a catastrophe knot about 10 feet lower than where I started sliding down the rope, so I wouldn't have decked if the device had completely failed but it was still a bit unnerving. And I am not going to use it any more.

8. Do you think the company will replace it? 

Do you have a Facebook account? This should be posted in Yann's TRS group. Yann's TRS and LRS groups are the center of the online rope soloing world, and if anyone can give you some feedback or advice regarding this device it will be Yann Camus. 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Do you have a Facebook account? This should be posted in Yann's TRS group. Yann's TRS and LRS groups are the center of the online rope soloing world, and if anyone can give you some feedback or advice regarding this device it will be Yann Camus. 

Thanks for the recommendation Ricky. I am a member of that group.  I have posted there in the past and was denied without cause because he didn't like my subject matter I guess?  Which irked me a bit. When I contributed this exact post there yesterday, I waited for 6 hours for approval and finally lost patience and deleted it.  I like this site and most of the people here anyway.  

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Do you have a Facebook account? This should be posted in Yann's TRS group. Yann's TRS and LRS groups are the center of the online rope soloing world, and if anyone can give you some feedback or advice regarding this device it will be Yann Camus. 

How about the manufacturer? I would think their feedback and advice would likely be the most valuable. 

Kyran Keislingwrote:

Thanks for the recommendation Ricky. I am a member of that group.  I have posted there in the past and was denied without cause because he didn't like my subject matter I guess?  Which irked me a bit. When I contributed this exact post there yesterday, I waited for 6 hours for approval and finally lost patience and deleted it.  I like this site and most of the people here anyway.  

It's the centre of their world, all the people I know who rope solo don't go there. Being on F#ckbook puts half of us off and it being an echo-chamber the other half.

Patrick Lwrote:

How about the manufacturer? I would think their feedback and advice would likely be the most valuable. 

I do plan on doing that, but before I go to them, I was hoping to see if this is a problem others have experienced.  Is this a common problem? I also wanted to share this publicly so that others might watch out for the same issue with their device.  

Interesting. I’ll have to mess with mine and see if it has a similar amount of play. Could always lop off an inch of the handle, or grind down the flat spot of the handle which looks like it might relieve the issue. 

Kyran Keislingwrote:

Thanks for the recommendation Ricky. I am a member of that group.  I have posted there in the past and was denied without cause because he didn't like my subject matter I guess?  Which irked me a bit. When I contributed this exact post there yesterday, I waited for 6 hours for approval and finally lost patience and deleted it.  I like this site and most of the people here anyway.  

Weird. That's unfortunate to hear, I've only had positive experiences with Yann and his group. I'm sure there are sufficient rope soloists here to get good feedback anyway.

Patrick L. wrote:

How about the manufacturer? I would think their feedback and advice would likely be the most valuable.

Well of course, but there are a lot of rope soloists who like it as a lead rope solo device, and Yann is kinda the ring leader in using it for LRS, and has a lot of experience in using it with TRS also. No one puts more abuse on their Lov3s than lead rope soloists, so the combined experience of Yann and the other rope soloists in those groups would be the place to go to hear from the people that abuse their Lov3s the most.

Jim Titt wrote:

It's the centre of their world, all the people I know who rope solo don't go there. Being on F#ckbook puts half of us off and it being an echo-chamber the other half.

Most rope soloists aren't in that group; rope soloists by disposition tend to be the sort to figure things out on their own and keep to themselves. But I am often surprised at rope soloists that I meet in real life not knowing even simple things that are pretty universally known in Yann's groups. Probably no one has contributed more to rope soloing education and knowledge than Yann-- I'm very grateful to him and his groups, even if it sounds like his moderation choices are sometimes weird and don't make sense.

I just went and looked at mine and definitely agree that they can fail if the handle gets caught up on the lip of the body. However, I'm a bit unsure how that would happen. The spring in the handle on my lov3 returns the handle to a resting position that is below the lip, meaning it is normally not possible to get hung up. The handle on mine does have a bit of lateral play; perhaps not as much as yours, but it's hard to say. I played with mine on a rope in my backyard and I couldn't recreate the failure mode without actively holding the handle onto the lip. Even when I just placed it on the lip it would always slip off immediately during a "fall" if not actively held there by my hand. 

In resting position is your handle below or above the edge of the device? 

I think you said you were pulling in slack right before your failure? is it possible you knocked the handle up, over, and onto the lip when you were doing that? 

Definitely a good question for Taz. Please report back what they say!

side note: I am also a member of the TRS/LRS FB groups. I think Yann seems like a really reasonable and helpful guy and I'm not understanding all the consternation here. It looks like there were no new posts published to the group yesterday. I think it's a lot more likely that the 3 moderators (of a group with 15k members) were all probably away from their computers (out climbing maybe?!) and just didnt look at the moderation queue. I highly doubt anyone was actively choosing not to allow your post.

Thank you for posting. My lever doesn't have as much play in it, but it's very new. Do you use the Lov3 with a chest harness?

exceptional post & well done to explain in a thoughtful demeanor.

I don't use the Taz, but i recognize a 'clearance' issue

between 2 mating surfaces as an egregious engineering

discipline.  the hub center whether by solid as in machined

from a solid body of the main piece or by fastener hardware

designed to bond critical pieces into a single body is not

living nice with the surrounding mechanism.  this can be

caused by abrasion (intrusion of detritus) or mechanically by forced & 

repeated cocking in the radial axis.  i agree with the effort to gain the attention

of the manufacturer & send the unit in for an evaluation.  

retire it on the shelf in the meantime as that 'rocking' conundrum

will not play nice with probabilities of chance.  

living well as a machinist & breathing freely in the TRS quiet effort,

s

I shared this in the TRS group and now somehow the inventor of the Lov3 heard about it and messaged me thinking that i was the one with the issue. He wants to talk about it. I'll send you a DM with the deets, Kyran. 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

I shared this in the TRS group and now somehow the inventor of the Lov3 heard about it and messaged me thinking that i was the one with the issue. He wants to talk about it. I'll send you a DM with the deets, Kyran. 

Ricky, thanks for posting over there.  I think Yann tagged the person who is following up.  I played around with my Lov2.  The handle has plenty of slop and can hang up in the way the OP observed.  With the rope out of the way, you can see the cam move slightly when the handle goes from "closed" to "resting on the plate".  Hard to say how much that affects the speed of its catch and certainly would depend on rope diameter.  I will probably grind a little bevel on the handle to mitigate this issue.  I use a micro traxion above the Lov - only time Lov caught my fall was when I forgot to put trax back on after a rappel (doh!).  Trax doesn't require rotation which gives me piece of mind.

Jay Andersonwrote:

I will probably grind a little bevel on the handle to mitigate this issue. 

I have a Lov2 and Lov3 and both of mine have enough play in the handle so that the handle can catch and rest on the device's body. I had noticed this in testing after buying it and immediately felt it was an issue which will need a solution. 

Jay's suggestion of grinding a bevel into the handle to deflect it passed the body would be a big help and could even be considered a minimum intervention given what has happened.
Sadly, I think that in the play in the handle is so significant that even an bevel may not be enough. I am looking at some options:

1) Making the plastic handle entirely removable and re-attachable for descents. This solves the safety problem (and other handle related issues), but at a considerable cost regarding convenience.
2) Making a button-down or strap-down from soft material (velcro or thin webbing with a snap-button?) for the handle, which 1) limits the handle's range so it cannot, during climbing, move passed the body and catch there, while 2) still allowing the range of movement which the handle has in its resting position.

3) A handle with a different shape would also solve the problem. It the handle, towards the sharp end, were to step outwards away from the body, then it would not catch on the body. I am not setup to make handles though. Maybe Taz needs to re-mould a safer handle shape.

If I figure something out, I will post here. 

I not on Facebook either, so please post anything you hear on here please.

I think remolding the shape of the handle and/or a metal sleeve bearing and closer tolerances in the handle bearing/axle would be possible solutions. An interim solution would be to bevel the edge of the handle as mentioned so that if it does catch because of play in the handle,  that it would immediately slip off.

I have to say though, in 2 years of using my Lov2 I've not experienced that and can't really reproduce the issue in a simulated situation. Still it is something that Taz needs to look into and address as a potential safety issue. 

I have just bevelled/rounded off the bottom edge facing the devices with a file. Also, I narrowed the handle towards the tip away from the device. So, in total, two planes of bevelling, if that make sense. Finally, I slightly rounded off the metal edge on the side plate itself. The amount of material which needed removing was determined by my handle's play. I kept checking and removed as little as needed. Now the handle (almost) can't get stuck on the or catch on the edge. The bevels mean the device simply spits the handle off it if wants to get stuck.

That's acceptable for now, but what I'd strongly prefer is a more precisely fitting and re-desidnged handle from Taz.

Update-  Pascal Ollivier from Taz contacted me.  We have discussed the issue in depth.  He was very professional and genuinely concerned about it. I agreed to send the device to them in France.  He has sent me a new replacement already. I will not hesitate to use the new one.   

I want to make it clear that I am not 100% sure that what happened to me wasn’t an operator error or that there could have been a piece of debris stuck in it that created the problem.  I also must re-emphasize that I am not certain that the handle was the cause of the problem.  I don’t know if it caught on the body and I don’t know if the slop in the play of the handle is an issue. The video I took was only hypothetical.  I am, however, 100% certain that I slid down the rope a bit, in a manner that has not happened to me in 8 months of extensive route development.  

I spent yesterday evening in my tree trying to create the phenomena.  I did MANY slack pull “jumps” similar to what I did on that day.  On about the 15th try I think I got one.  The problem is it was the first tug off of the ground and I was immediately out of altitude to see if it was indeed happening.  When my feet hit after the 2’ of air I had,  I began running backward and the Taz wasn’t engaging. I got about 6 feet out of it.  My hands were free of it and I was able to see that the handle was NOT caught on the body BUT was higher up on the body than where it normally rests.  This led me to start investigating the lever mechanism within the body and made me wonder if there was friction or torquing making it hang up or something?  When I was backpedaling I was purposely ramping my speed and once I got to a fast speed it engaged.  I then did many, many more upwards move/tugs and I couldn’t get it to do the same thing again no matter what I did.  The reason I am hesitant to say that I reproduced the issue is because I may have had a downward orientation to the Taz that allowed it to slip.  I have noticed that it must remain upright in order to work properly and maybe because I was running backward on flat ground it was facing down and allowing slippage?? But like I said, I tried desperately to do it again and was unable to. I will do another session before I send it back and see what I can do.  

Can someone shoot holes in my theory please.  

Kyran Keislingwrote:

Can someone shoot holes in my theory please.  

You have suggested two possible causes.
1) The handle getting caught/hanging on the plate
2) The video showing how a torqued carabiner could cause the cam to stick, completely or momentarily

To me, you have correctly found two possible shortcomings. I think there are even more possible issues which are par for course with any device of this nature. I still use it, but one should treat any straight-through-pivot fall arrest device with respect. Some general advice: always back it up with another device (e.g. Micro Traxion), then back up both devices with some suitably placed backup knots. If you know a fall is immanent, then fall in a pronounced or exaggerated way and don't event think about grabbing the device. Do some practice falls to see if this is your instinct. If it is, then re-train that instinct.

Of the two issues, the handle has the greater potential for causing possible problems. I also think it is the likelier explanation for what happend to Kyran, but I can't be certain.

Handle problem

The long-term solution to the handle problem must come from Taz. My message to Taz is: please re-design the handle's shape and also improve the play by working on closer tolerances. The handle needs rounding off on the device-facing side. I have modified my handle with a taper only the handle and rounding and bevelling off the edge. Also, I have slightly round off the device's sharpish metal edge. You absolutely need to make you own judgement call on whether you want to modify or not. I am not making a recommendation to modify,  you may void a warranty, and I'm not an expert. Here's mine:

Carabiner Torque Problem (pinched cam problem)

The cam-pinching effect you have noticed, can be caused by any force generated at the connection point, which may lever, torque the devices plate(s), which, in turn, result in the plate(s) pivoting at the main rivet and pinching the cam. Your torqued carabiner is one good example. Here's another:

The pictured cord, which some might be using to attach to a chest rig, has wandered between the plates, the result is a pinched cam at the other end of the device which may mean failure or a delay to lock.

To avoid this, always basket hitch through both holes for your chest rig setup. To help with the raised carabiner torque problem, use an oval carabiner. The best carabiner I have found for this device, for many reasons, is the AustriaAlpin Ovalock . There are of course other good carabiners which are suitable.

In my opinion the Lov3, with its opening on the rotating plate to pass a carabiner so the climbers stays clipped, sadly opens up greater potential for plate interference and a resulting cam pinching. In this aspect the Lov2 is possibly superior.

Lol - the never ending musings of crash test dummies for novel and unproven systems.