Would this count as a flash?

I went to the crag today with my climbing partner to belay her on a climb, and when we got there it was damp since it had just rained. I decided to stick clip up to hang the draws and dry/chalk some of the holds. I didn’t try any moves since I wasn’t even sure if I was going to try the climb. After she sent, I gave it a go and made it to the top without falling. It doesn’t really matter to me about this climb, but it made me curious what other people thought.

tl;dr is it a flash if you rappelled down a climb to chalk and hang draws before trying it and then sent it first go?

Flash, but not an Onsight

Based on what Ondra considers a flash, I think yer good. He goes super in depth scoping out beta, getting stuff pre hung, etc. Pretty sure he doesn't chalk holds though. 

The opinions gonna differ based on who you talk to and the era/climbing scene they learned in. 

I would probably call it a flash but Ondra wouldn’t. I think Ondra was okay climbing a tree and using binoculars to look at holds but not going up the draw line. I might be remembering wrong but I think that’s what he said on his enormocast episode, or a different podcast. 

It’s called first try after previewing the holds - neither a flash nor an onsight - something easier.  Knowing the holds is a significant advantage.

Bryan wrote:

I would probably call it a flash but Ondra wouldn’t. I think Ondra was okay climbing a tree and using binoculars to look at holds but not going up the draw line. I might be remembering wrong but I think that’s what he said on his enormocast episode, or a different podcast. 

That's a good point. I wasn't exactly sure if he goes to pre hang his draws of has his team do it. Granted, not all of us have a full film crew to help us get the perfect send. 

Scoping stuff out up close definitely makes a huge difference. Climbing a tree with binoculars vs hanging on a line up close but not touching the rock is cutting the margins rather close though. 

Yeah I think I could be convinced this isn’t a flash. Or at least it’s a flash with an asterisk. If I mentioned that I did a route in the style I would likely say I did it on my first go. 

No, you touched the holds. Definitely not a flash for Ondra, or you would see him going up to touch the holds too instead of interviewing people for hours before he tries to flash.

Todd Berlier wrote:

i wouldn't call it a flash if u touched the holds with your hands. 

This isn't remotely true. Plenty of boulders get "flashed" after someone walks up, brushes the holds, chalks them up and then sends the boulder on their first try. As long as you don't try the moves it's still a flash. There isn't a different standard between bouldering and sport climbing.

Todd Berlier wrote:

you are 100% wrong. 

first, im speaking in absolutes as a joke, since when one gives an opinion its impossible for something to be 100% anything. yourself included.  not trying to be a dick, i just love semantic discussions. and this is all written in good faith with a smile (as that is often lost on forums).

bear with me. i take flash to mean prior knowledge, first try, climb a route with no falls having never been on the climb before. redpoint is to do a climb having been on it. i do believe that feeling holds is having been on it, therefore not a flash. i get your point, i just disagree.

as far as bouldering. i dont claim flash or onsight due to the fact i can feel a lot of the holds from the ground. i only say i did it first try. i also feel this should be the standard for bouldering. i also can't remember a time when i didnt brush and feel holds.

there are "standards" but if you accept that there are grey areas (i.e. knowing about where the crux is; number of bolts, grade of climbing its not a "true" onsight by definition) then you might accept "on" as meaning placed hands "on" holds.

to take your opinion (i think, forgive me if i am being too presumptuous) to the obvious conclusion, then i could still flash a climb if i rapped the route pulled onto every position on the climb but not "tried" any moves and still call it a flash. i say no to that and so no to flash if i touch anything.

in summary i think what OP did falls into a grey area of the standards and we were asked our opinions and i gave mine. 

also i would implore you and everyone when giving an opinion on something not provably true or false to acknowledge that when giving the opinion.

peace.

I'm a 100% wrong, but yet you are not speaking in absolutes? Hilarious. If you feel so strongly about this, I implore you to contact other boulderers that are setting the standards as to whether, or not touching a hold negates their flash send. If they can touch the holds from the ground, you'd be surprised by how many people are still considering this a Flash. Maybe not by your personal standards, but that's ok neither one of us are raising the bar these days. Jens over a 8a.nu has been trying to set the Standards in climbing since the website started and considering how many people from all over the world are on that website compared to MP's chest thumping forum good luck trying to push your personal Standards on someone else.

There are plenty of grey areas in this sport. For example, it's been fairly common knowledge since I started in 1998 that you can still claim an "onsight" if you started up a climb and for whatever reason you downclimbed a route without weighting the rope and then proceeded to send the route with no falls. I think this has always been silly, but this is something I've seen between the climbing communities in the Southeast where I started back in NC, WV, TN, and KY and even the last 15 yrs that I've lived in CO. Some standards have even been removed from the sport like "pink pointing" or being lowered from a route if you fell without working on the moves which only shows your age and not the standard of a redpoint send if you tried to call someone out on the difference between the two. 

I understand completely there's going to be people passionate about their personal climbing ethics whether it's style or sending definitions but that shouldn't police the community at large. Adam Ondra has strict personal standards, but he's also a professional athlete that wants to climb something in his best personal style. Rapping a route and touching the holds without trying any of the moves only negates an onsight, but as long as you are being honest it still doesn't technically negate the flash if you didn't try the moves. Would this be considered a "best practice" to claim a flash after touching all the holds when rapping? Not by mine, and obviously you but I'm ok with that at the end of the day. I just wouldn't personally cyber stalk their Mountain Project, or 8a.nu accounts and call them out in front of all of our friends that they didn't "Flash" a route by my standard (not that you are doing, or considering that).

Making with bold flash!

Did you go from the ground to the top without weighting the rope on your first attempt?  Congratulations, you flashed the route.

Now we can argue how to subclassify it because you pre-hung the draws...

Todd Berlier wrote:

as far as bouldering. i dont claim flash or onsight due to the fact i can feel a lot of the holds from the ground. i only say i did it first try. i also feel this should be the standard for bouldering. i also can't remember a time when i didnt brush and feel holds.

IMO a definition so strict that it precludes 95% of common usage is not a good definition. Brushing, chalking, and then sending first-try is almost always called a "flash" in bouldering. The super-strict method you're talking about is just an onsight. You can't usually onsight boulders because they're so low to the ground, but I suppose you could onsight something like Too Big to Flail or Ambrosia (not that you'd want to…).

Did you go from the ground to the top without weighting the rope on your first attempt? Congratulations, you flashed the route.

I might just add, "without having previously attempted any of the moves". The real gray area is on routes that share an entrance or exit, in which case I think it depends on the route and where the difficulty lies.

But flashing is pretty silly and personal no matter how you define it. Like, if you "save" a climb for years hoping to someday flash it when you've leveled up, is it really all that impressive? As a feat of discipline, sure, but the true test of flash skill is in how it relates to your personal limit, the difficulty/complexity of the style, etc. That's all way too specific to tie up neatly in a definition.

Onsight>Flash>Redpoint>Brownpoint>Fraiding>TopRoping

Claudine Longet wrote:

Onsight>Flash>Redpoint>Brownpoint>Fraiding>TopRoping

Oh man, has the infamous Pinkpoint just gone away now? I wonder what Ondro said about it on his podcast!

This thread makes me want to puke. 

If you’re going to spew, spew into this.

Bryan wrote:

If you’re going to spew, spew into this.

Thanks for that receptacle. 

The way that I approach boulders is that you can both onsight and flash after having touched whatever holds you can without pulling on to the problem. It would be an onsight if you did this without having seen anyone do the climb and without being told about any beta.

For sport climbing, rappelling down a route to touch holds without actually pulling on feels different enough that I don’t think I would call it a flash. I think that’s because rappelling down the route to feel holds gives you much more knowledge about the entire climb, and it gives you the perfect angle to visualize body positions. These are pretty big advantages over simply seeing someone do the climb or being told beta. 

However, I would say that the same rules apply for sport climbing in regards to touching whatever holds you can from the ground, and you can get as much word-of-mouth/visual beta as you want and still call it a flash, but rappelling down the route to touch the holds feels a bit too far for me. I’d say the same thing about rappelling down a boulder to feel holds on it.

I could probably be convinced otherwise, but that’s how I view it. 

I reject your reality and substitute my own. 

Todd Berlier wrote:

that is, imo, the best statement made on this thread.

It’s how I approach most things in life.