Vertically offset anchors connected with swaged SS cable?

Hey All!

This forum has been a huge help in extending our working knowledge-base and best practices. That being said - i'd like to revisit something that has been brought up several times, but not thoroughly fleshed out (imho)...   

Connecting vertically offset anchors with a swaged SS cable (see sketch): 

Pros:

• Lighter weight and much cheaper than SS Chain.
• Can be cut to the exact length needed in situ. (something that can't be done with chain. It can also be much longer than chain without getting ridiculously expensive?)
• In the above set-up, is never weighted unless the lower bolt fails, thus lessoning abrasion concerns that have been brought up elsewhere (?)
• No need for eye thimbles, as it is not weighted, as long as minimum bend radiuses are adhered too. (?) 
• Plenty strong enough with 1/4 SS cable (~5000 lb breaking) zinc -plated copper swages, and assumed hand-swaged eye strength being 80% of cable, conservatively) 
• Still allows for standard sport climber double quickdraw anchor (opposite and opposed through rap ring)

Cons: 

• Swages can be done poorly, making them much too weak.
• Prone to twisting (although I believe minimal if it not fully weighted like the sketch above).
• All of the nooks and crannies creates pockets for corrosion / steel splinters (even with those lil shrink wrapped plastic sheathes over the connections).
• SS Chain is standardized, allows for more clip-in points.
• Why use potentially sub-standard DIY anchors when commercial equipment is available (valid point - but see "Pros" list  )

I know this has been discussed HERE - but this was in the context of the wire being loaded over a sharp edge and concern of twisting and weirdness.

And HERE - but this was in the context of a beefy more-permanent slung anchor, instead of textile tat.

Or should I give up on having the bolts connected (allowing for easy quickdraw TRing, among other benefits) and do euro-style vertically offset anchors... like this one posted by Mattm:

Would love to hear thoughts from folks that been doing this for ages / direct anchor replacement non-profits / manufacture the best bolts in Germany ;) 

Couple thoughts. I don’t like the two quick draw system where the quick draws are so close, I can see a situation where the quick draw on the rap ring walks over can clips into the other quick draw. On those systems I would rather have one quick draw just handling all the weight. We wip on one quick draw all the time I simply don’t see how/why equalized quick draws are important and I actually think staggered anchors make more sense because the rock is more likely to fail than the bolt so having anchor bolts close seems like rock failure is exacerbated.

Second, I don’t know where your bolting but a swayed cable seems best in a place that doesn’t really get wet. If swayed cable was soaking wet(sitting on a slab at slab in trees at index) all the time you would now need to replace a bolt hanger and the cable. I think a chain would outlast it by a lot.

Third I think it would be impractical. I generally don’t measure the distance between the anchor bolts then go home but in this situation it seems like you would need to know the dimensions before you install the anchor or carry a bunch of these around.

Forth a chain anchor is more versatile as you have more clip in points as you said but it’s just better to handle than a cable with your hands.

Fifth, high levels of efficiency doing this yourself isn’t any cheaper than cable or at least as I have been told.

Lastly I actually think this is a fun idea but I don’t know if I would actually do it. Curious what others have to say?

Lighter and cheaper? My wire cutter and swager weight about 6kg and cost maybe $500. Don't forget to buy a proof guage while you are shopping.

Closing a mechanical swager with 1/4" wire hanging on a rope will be almost impossible, get a hydraulic one.

I have been using stainless cable for top anchors, permas, and clean anchors for 20+ years. There is so much resistance on this forum i havent bothered talking about it much. 

I have found that it is best to use thimbles because the gumbies will load the cable directly.

Store bought non stainless permas make no sense to be here in the southeast. They dont seem to last 10 years. 

3/16 cable in a loop is very strong. You can buy it in a variety of strand configurations. I mostly buy it from McMaster‐Carr.  I use a Nico-press swager with a built in cutter and as Jim says it was spendy, but so is a good grinder for cutting chain. 

I have just recently started buying the long link chain from team tough. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Any of these vertically arranged anchors are easy to TR off of with QDs.  It's just that for some odd reason, we in the US think the QDs need to be "even".  Never mind we just led a route with single QDs the entire way....  I've recently installed a fair number of anchors (50?) in local limestone and found being flexible in what arrangement you use is great.  Both setups I use are vertical.  One uses the Team Tough (Titt) Glue In with 4x long link chain and the other is a version of the "French" setup pictured above.  I tend towards the French setup if the rock angle cooperates as this gives me a bit more flexibility in bolt location (pocketed limestone) but will use an inline chain setup when I need the rope lower off to be on the lower bolt due to rock shape etc.  Honestly, the % of anchors where I'd want the extra chain length for an inline (or in your case, cable) are REALLY low.  The biggest negative (and why you'll see resistance to cable) is it's simply not as reliable an item as chain on multiple fronts.  Can it be good?  sure.  But the effort to ensure it is is far out weighed by the simplicity of chain.  YMMV but I'd just suggest doing what I did and buying 3m of the Long Link 316SS chain from Team Tough for when you absolutely need it and going with one of the other options for the other 98%.  French Rigs or an inline with Ramshorn are far better IMO.

Really good points.  

Mattm, & Trevor, I totally hear the "why the hell do we need quickdraws to be equalized." Euros have us beat there. Good points! Mattm, glad the anchors you described have become the standard and It's nice to hear that those are getting more broadly adopted in the states.  Do you do the lower-off style vertical sport anchors? Or closed. I do really like the ramshorn, stainless carabiner vertical french style...   (how many descriptors does one anchor need...bah)

Trevor, I would push back and don't really follow your concern about one quickdraw "walking" too close to the other and clipping into it? That seems incredibly unlikely... Based on all of your comments regarding Puget Sound area rock, have you climbed at Marymoor? All of the anchor points are monopoints and having two draws right off one ring-type staple is a super common anchor and I have never had / seen the two draws interact in that way. Why don't we just use two lockers in this situation - now that's a good question...! Secondly, I feel like your impractical point regarding the distance between anchor points is more of a concern for chain than cable. I can cut and swage cable on the wall, with all manual tools (even if upgraded to the hydraulic swager, as Jim mentioned) Can't do the same with chain. (but perhaps I could with a better system...) 

Jim, fair points! I have a 80 dolla hand swager that weights atleast 2 kg, but I could carry feet of cable without much of a weight penalty. I use a proof gauge, but would still love to get them pull tested before I actually set an anchor as such.  Adimitaly I have only swaged 3/16 cable with my hand swager and it's not terrible!  Just thought I would bump it up to 1/4 to be overkill - maybe it would be impossible hanging off a wall... 

timothy, good call on the thimbles and 3/16 cable. Glad to hear you are having success with it in the southeast! Totally agree that the prolific use of non-stainless commercial permadraws outside is a headache... 

Completely hear y'alls points- but it seems like the major pushback is the mixed quality of hand swaging? I don't think that just because swaging can be bad, shouldn't stop folks who know how to do it correctly (not claiming this is me...   ) from using it effectively in the wild? 

In the mean time, I have a small stockpile of SS chain and will happily use it all up! Great convo y'all. 

What Tim said. I've been using this, or a similar setup, on some routes in NC (very wet climate) for even longer. There are obvious disadvantages, but it is a good setup for lesser travelled areas (typical NC, thank God) where you need stainless gear. The lesser weight was also an advantage since I did a lot of stuff rope solo. Overall, IF you know exactly what youre doing, then this is a cheaper qualitt solution for certain types of anchors.

In CO I just use the standard ss bolts and non-ss QL/chain combo. Haven't used that setup in a few years.

OP: I'm happy elaborate more on my setup (pics, etc.) if you want to PM me.

Edit to add:

Not sure why you'd carry the cable with you; just set it up ahead of time. Worst case if youre doing it in situ is to leave a little extra cable and dremmel ths excess off once you're swaged.

Also, I had a friend in the climbing gear biz pull test my swages in the past to their rated (actually a bit above) strengths. I also worked closely with a local cable supply/construction shop in ensuring all the right metrics were met. It can be an easy thing to fuck up if you just get your supplies anywhere.

Follow up photo

I recently saw a similar setup. At 0:58 if the timestamp doesn't link correctly.

Jim Titt wrote:

Lighter and cheaper? My wire cutter and swager weight about 6kg and cost maybe $500. Don't forget to buy a proof guage while you are shopping.

Closing a mechanical swager with 1/4" wire hanging on a rope will be almost impossible, get a hydraulic one.

having swedged, alot of 3/8s or bigger wire rope... i call bs. having not had to do it on a wall... i say bravo.

There are a lot of these set ups anywhere certain las vegas riggers who climb alot like to go climb. mostly because we could borrow the cutter, swedger and the wire rope.

nbrown wrote:

Follow up photo

But but but but the 10,000 lb ring could disintigrate.  Eyes rolling. 

Super clean, simple, easy rope pull.