Large Metolius UL Masters

I have BD cams from 0.75-3 (my partner owns the smaller stuff) and I want to get doubles, now are the Metolius UL Masters a good choice for doubles? I know Metolius makes good cams in the smaller sizes but how do their 5-8 cams compare to the C4 0.75-3? They are lighter (but only single axle vs the BD dual) and the longest routes I'm doing are 5 pitches max so the weight savings aren't that critical imo.

Anyone had good experiences with the bigger masters? Or bad experiences?

I really like them up to a 6, the 7 and 8 are good but not as amazing. I find up to a 6 the narrowness of the head comes in handy a lot, but for 7 and 8 it's not as useful. 

I own both power cams and c4s in the full range of sizes. The overlap is nice as they don't perfectly align, but I dont think it matters that much in the long run.

Great, BDs seem to walk when I look at them and the ulms always feel more bomber to me but Of course that last bit is personal preference.

TBH, I really like the black Metolious size with other cams... but the rest I don't care for, just cause they don't feel as good to me.  I've gotten to be where I like a thumb loop, if I have a choice.  

If it were me, going from scratch and using my personal preferences it'd be:

green totem
black ULMC
1,2,3 C4

My thought is that I don't really care about totems larger than green and love the smaller ones, I like the black Metolious size, and then I like thumb loops....  but those are all wildly personal preferences. 

You might have way different preferences, and personally I'd climb with about anything on the market and not feel bad about it, cause it's all pretty good stuff.

I got the 6-8 at cost otherwise I wouldn’t have bought them, as someone said above they don’t completely align with the 1-3 In BD so in real niche instances the cams do fit better.

But, I would say for doubles you’re better off getting BD and maybe someday if you want Triples get the UL

BD cams in those sizes just have way more range. I sold my bigger power cams over the winter. I still have black and green master cams which I use regularly but the double axel 1,2 and 3’s are hard to beat. I also have a set of super cams that have a bigger range. They are okay but seem more clunky and harder to place than the C4 equivalents IMHO. To me the double axel design just seems better for larger cams. 

they’re good but they start to get just a tad wobbly when you contract them toward the top of their range. it’s not a huge issue but it gets a little annoying with the 8 i have.

I have a full set of master cams and I love them, I personally think there better than the BD cams. The bigger sizes can get a bit floppy but if ur really worried about that just go to light blue. Dark blue through green are good.

If you only have 2 sets of cams the metolious would be a good compliment to wild country Dmm or even BD double axle cams.

The number 8 master cam / power cam is a unique size that fills the dredded gap between the gold and blue double axel. I carry one of those often.

Whatever you do, grab at least a single #2 WC New Friend, the size is shifted larger and fills the gap from when a C4 #2 is tipped out and a C4 #3 still won't fit. In fact, getting your 2nd set as WC Friends compliments BD sizes nicely from #1-3 as the WC are all a little larger and the extendable slings are awesome for splitters.

K Gowrote:

Whatever you do, grab at least a single #2 WC New Friend, the size is shifted larger and fills the gap from when a C4 #2 is tipped out and a C4 #3 still won't fit. In fact, getting your 2nd set as WC Friends compliments BD sizes nicely from #1-3 as the WC are all a little larger and the extendable slings are awesome for splitters.

Is this really a thing?  I think there is quite a bit of overlap between the #2 and #3 C4's. I can't say I've experienced a case in the wild where the crack was just too big for a #2 but too tight for a #3. Maybe narrower head or something. But definitely not a regular thing for me.

Phil Sakievichwrote:

Is this really a thing?  I think there is quite a bit of overlap between the #2 and #3 C4's. I can't say I've experienced a case in the wild where the crack was just too big for a #2 but too tight for a #3. Maybe narrower head or something. But definitely not a regular thing for me.

Yep, pretty common on some Indian creek splitters like Supercrack. I've noticed it at Index before as well on Rattletale towards the top of P2, BD #2 is more tipped than I'd like and if you throw a #3 in you'll donate it (like the one that's welded in there), a #2 WC is perfect there. 

I love having both a C4 and WC #2's, they feel like a half size different. Interestingly, WC reduced the overlap between their #1 and #2 while increasing the overlap between #2 and #3, but I haven't noticed the issue between #1-2. 

WC & BD #1-3. Small black lines are the "usable" range, they use 10-60% retracted unless specified by the manufacturer (only Metolius specifies this, the rest just give the max range).

Metolius & WC & BD

From cam-parison

The % retracted is interesting to me. I find a 10% retracted cam much, much worse than an 80% cam. Unless I am misunderstanding what those percentages mean.

Hmmm maybe I’ve just been more comfortable with a larger expansion of the #2’s. The amount of range that this charts are clipping off is a lot more than I’d expect for a usable range. I feel like I can safely use more than 50% of the cams expansion range on the larger cams. But I can’t say I’ve ever whipped on a #2 that’s at the upper end of its range either. 

Sorry I meant % expanded, i.e. 10% expanded means 10% of the total cam range plus the minimum size of the cam (when fully retracted). If the cam range is 20-30mm (random example), then 10-60% expanded would be 21-26mm effective range, leaving out the 10% smallest range, closest to being fully cammed (aka stuck) and the largest 40% (aka undercammed). That's just what they use for their data comparison, see the pic below.

Technically a cam should provide adequate holding power throughout the range (that's how a constant camming angle works) but getting close to the max expansion you have less room for the cam to walk around and expand before being undercammed and falling out in a flared placement. Also be aware that the torsional springs in cams provide a torque relative to the angle of rotation so towards the largest end of the expansion range the torsion spring is creating less torque and therefore pressing the cam lobes against the rock with less force, which may be important in wet or less textured rock.

Here is the C4 #2 at 60% expanded and the WC #2 at the same size. You can get a rather overcammed BD #3 in here and just baaaarely wiggly in a WC #3.