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North Table Mountain/Golden Cliffs
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*There may be an existing thread for this discussion* I have been climbing at North Table Mountain in Golden, CO since I was a a child. Let me first start by saying I do not condone the elitism and gatekeeping that is often seen in our sport and in the outdoors in general but today made me feel like maybe I should. I realize everybody has to start somewhere in terms of experience but that does not excuse total lack of climbing etiquette and total lack of respect for the outdoors, even more than just your standard LNT principles. I saw things ranging from people with no understanding of anchor building, to just tying right into mussy hooks and then top roping 5+ people up and down fixed equipment. Then people just disregarding any social distancing and coming right next to me and my party (literally on the route next to us) without even asking or saying hello at least. On top of that I saw some numpties literally throw a beer can off the trail and then watched someone’s dog shit at the base of the route and then the owners proceeded to do nothing and walked away. I do not know what to do to remedy this. Obviously climbings popularity skyrocketing hasn’t helped issues like this but I just needed to get this off my chest. |
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Options: Call people out on their stupid shit. You’ll probably never see these cunts again and if they comply and do the right thing it’s a win for everybody there. If they don’t, it sucks but you’ll likely never see them again so personally it’s not the end of the world. Engage the local outfitters, gears stores and climbing organizations and try to push them to educate outdoor recreationalists on the best practices for their outdoor pursuits. Companies will sling all the gear to people but give zero fucks about how they use it. They really shouldn’t. I’m not some grizzled veteran of the outdoors but having thru hiked long trails and climbed a bunch in the Front Range ive seen a lot of dumb stuff. Called out some of it, walked away from some of it. Say nothing and rant about it on mountain project. This helps no one and just reinforces how bad a time you on this beautiful early March day. I wrestled a couple of pebbles in Evergreen today. It was such a nice day! You shouldn’t be coming home to post on mountain project to rant. That ain’t right. Good luck I guess. |
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+1 for things getting out of hand and there needing to be more proactive intervention. It was more crowded than I’ve ever seen up there, and the smart money was/is on seeking less crowded terrain. My parter is vaccinated but, he still wore a mask when there were strangers proximal. I’m very proud of him for this. Masks and social distance did not seem to be much of a priority for folks, otherwise. Definitely agree that hearing more “Hey would you keep your distance...” would be welcome chatter. SAFETYWISE: - witnessed separate 2 incidents, in separate parties, of a belayer going handsfree or nearly handsfree with a tube device in order to take photos of the leader. (I informed both that this was making me nervous and a generally bad/unacceptable practice.) Newbieness with a blase attitude to safety and intoxicants were a factor. A bad scene. - I’m just generally against seeing people struggle on 5.9 at the relatively short NTM routes be told “GO FOR IT!” by their belayers. There’s no shame in sustainably toproping a route until you have it dialed for the lead. LNT: - piss puddles at the base of the routes (next to empty beer cans, go figure), and social trail scars out to the brush that are getting more and more braided and entrenched. - I found myself walking a trail errosion line to bypass a group blocking the main trail when I didn’t closely consider that it wasnt already part of the established stable path. In penance, I spent 5 minutes stacking rocks and branches at the end of the dirtcut in order to signal that it should not be used. Literally 40 seconds after I walked away, a group of 4 stepped right over my construction. - That powerglider and quadcopter drone circus towards the late afternoon seemed a bit more “Yay Instagram!” than “Yay Nature!”. But maybe I’m just a luddite. >potential solutions here: >For my part, I’ll be bringing a piss bottle from now on to dump at the lot toilet at days end. > 1 or 2 designated off-shoot trails for “taking care of business”, perhaps? Maybe a can of worms. Would require clear demarcation and proactive community enforcement to prevent scope creep. >Fencing along the cliffband would be a major undertaking and an aesthetic debate, but a line of durable, clearly visible construction thread fixed to the dirt that can indicate the de facto edge of the existing cliffband trail might be a good start. Rocks and branches dont seem to get the message across. Even when beefed up, the sticks get tossed and the rocks gets kicked into disassembly. — I’m not claiming infallibility on my part. My personal biffs yesterday included: -I’ve already mentioned going “off-trail”. -I miscounted the draws on Squirrel and trusted the 5+2m count on MP, which is actually 7+2m. Ended up running it out through the last bolt. Non-consequential this time and I felt within my risk tolerance, or else i would have lowered; but it was still stupid and unnecessary.and a bad example for the newbies, at the very least. I’ve submitted the suggested info update to the MP page, but anyone with eyes and a brain shouldnt need to rely on that for such a route. -Not sure what you mean by “tied directly into mussys”, but thats also something i did yesterday in order to hang a tr for someone who forestalled hanging it from above as I was about to lead it. I cloved in to the hooks in order to lower a line and haul up his gear. Would have been better to have had a sling/PAS or some-such to clip in direct, but I see very little other that was problematic about redundantly hitching off on the fresh mussys in my specific case.) — I don’t think there’s anything wrong with calling it all out as a problem via the MP forums. This space sees massive traffic (lurkers as well as contributors) and it does get the word out. Maybe not directly at those most in need of a talking to, but it is a form of public notice. +1 for “Call it out”. It doesn’t need to be a fight or pissing match, just letting people know they are seen misbehaving and should know better, and alternatives suggested. I like to think I would have been receptive to any valid criticism for my mistakes yesterday, and appreciative of any suggested viable alternatives. It’d likely deservedly rub me raw and harsh my mellow, if nothing else. Which is probably a good burn to feel. Most importantly, the conversation needs to be had. “Here” is an ok starting point. But definitely “there” and in the moment of transgression, as well. |
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I've had to call out quite a bit at NTM when I head up there - for your own personal experience typically any crag that isn't brown cloud or overhang area will be less of a circus. The unfortunate part is it seems not only is there constantly some profoundly poorly thought out actions going on there - but also people respond exceedingly poorly when you let them know they're being unsafe/using poor etiquette/etc. Some definitely have taken it well, but I think Brent's point of so many people up there being in groups and drinking gives a lot of folks a rough edge when you're trying to talk to them about something serious. Does anyone know any examples of places that kind of devolved like NTM has that eventually got better? What kind of steps did they take beyond barring access? It's not just the climbers up there wreaking havoc on the place but it definitely seems like climbers are doing more than their fair share of damage. |
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Wow I never go there but this sounds like some 5 star people watching. I say get a film crew up there and cash in on these Gumbies Gone Wild!! |
Adam blocwrote: Well, that’s certainly one way to use your time... Or you could use the limited days of your youth to get involved in ways that aren’t obnoxiously selfish and asinine. |
Tal Mwrote: This is really all you need to know to have a good day at NTM. We typically don't go up there on weekends because of the circus, If we do, we go early and leave early. I don't think it's possible to educate everyone, we could probably use some signage, hopefully there is one person per group who likes rules and reads signs. I try to be the change I want to see, pick up trash, stay on trail, top rope through draws, and collect the booty left behind by the circus. |
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Perhaps climber etiquette cards could be handed out. That may be easier and more effective than confrontation. I don’t climb here. But, the habits down here, good and bad, will easily spread to other crags in Colorado and even around the country as climbers gain experience and venture out to other areas. The cards could be laminated to preserve them and encourage passing them along. |
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I’m glad I’m not the only one who has felt that things were getting out of hand. AAC and CMC are right in Golden but it’s not like education through those orgs can solve everything going on up there. I agree with Brent that it needs to be an okay thing to call people out, like I said earlier I’m not a perfect myself when it comes to crag etiquette and I’m sure I’ve pissed some people off in my day but things are getting out of hand and those of us who can need to step up and try and educate our fellow people. Greg, I think climber etiquette cards are a great idea and something that could be left at the base of the trail head for people to grab or even a laminated version posted on the trail head board. |
Collin Hutchingswrote: honestly, it probably isn't going to help. this issue is similar to the erosion issue we face on many of the front range trails from users riding mtn bikes and running off trail to avoid mud during the shoulder seasons. a few years ago there were big initiatives in some of the open space parks to put up signage and educate people about staying on the trail or avoid using the trails altogether on muddy days. it didn't work...much like i think putting up climbing etiquette signs likely won't work. the unfortunately truth is people will likely do what they want unless there is strong enforcement, not from the community, but from someone who has real authority (park rangers etc.). |
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From my perspective I feel like we will bee picking up these etiquette cards from the ground and they may upset other trail users, such as those coming to hike and seeing climbing cards strewn about the crag. What we start by incorporating the local ethics into the home page for North Table Mountain/Golden Cliffs. The only note on the popularity is: Note, as the years have gone by and the popularity of this area has increased, the rock has become polished in places...amazingly so in spots. In particular, warm days will increase this characteristic and leave the infrequent visitor feeling sandbagged at times. Beware. We could add a list to the main page, which is for sure how most people get their route beta. AF has a good list here This is a potential list for North Table adapted from the AF resource: Local Ethics: - Tope Rope through your own gear. A lot of climbs here are equipped with mussy hooks for lower-off safety not for top roping. Parking: - Park respectfully, leaving space for other cars. Do not park on the grass, it can take years for the wild grasses to return after being trampled by tires. Peeing/Pooping: - North Table has only one rest room near the climbing area at the base at the lower parking lot. Please do not pee at the base of a climb. There are multiple gullies for you to venture up and find a nice quiet spot away from the crowds and trails. Please be respectful of the neighborhoods below and be discrete. For number 2 either hike down or use a wag bag if it is an emergency. Dogs: - Two words: Rattle Snakes. If you haven't seen them up here yet, you will. They are everywhere. In the rocks we climb on, in the grass, near the trail, in the gullies. Keep your furry friend close or they could be the next bite victim. - Keep them leashed, not everyone wants your dog running across their rope while their climber is cruxing out. It is possible that 1 person in a group likes dogs and another does not. Do not assume that everyone loves your dog. - Pick up after your dog and PACK IT OUT. Do not let your dog pee at the base of the cliff if you can prevent it. Access: - Jeffco Open Space allows us to climb here. Follow their guidelines. Gear: - Don't be a junk show! Gear should be placed close to the cliff, not at the edge of the staging area. - Keep your gear organized and placed on durable surfaces like rocks or hard packed dirt. - No stashing! Pack out your gear and pads each session. Large Groups: - Carpool so that your group isn't taking up limited parking. - Disperse your group into smaller pairs so you're not hogging an entire section of climbing. - Don't block trails. Forcing people to walk around your group causes social trails and erosion. - If you’re on the ground watching, stay in the staging area so that you’re not spreading your impact by trampling sensitive plants. - Be respectful of other visitors and don’t bogart an entire area by hanging ropes. Once you're done with a route, pull your rope and move on. - Keep your gear organized, contained, and on durable surfaces. Plan ahead to avoid bringing unnecessary gear and pads that will clutter up the base of the climb. - Leave the music at home and enjoy the sounds of your environment. Trails: - Stay on Trail! Established trails are laid out thoughtfully to provide sustainable routes. Going off trail damages the environment. - In areas where trails don’t exist, stick to durable surfaces whenever possible to spare fragile plant life. Take the same trail out that you took in to minimize your impact. - On muddy trails, stay the course. Walking around the mud widens the trail and increases the impact. Chalk: - Remove your tick marks! Not everyone wants your beta! - Clean up your chalk spills. Trash: - Pack out all of your trash, including food waste. - Set a good example by picking up any litter that you find. Be Nice: - Don’t hog routes or leave ropes up if you aren't using them. - If you're sharing space with other climbers, communicate about your intentions. - Strike up a conversation—getting to know other climbers is a powerful way to build bridges. - If you see a ranger or land manager, say hello. Ask them what their biggest concerns are for the area and how climbers can help. |
Cory Nwrote: |
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Everybody reading this is going to nod their head in agreement and then ignore it when they get to the base of the crag because it is inconvenient for them to do any of it. Thus is not a new problem but has been made much worse because there are too many new climbers, thank you climbing gyms, People are ignorant pigs and climbers are people, hmmmmm. |
Kevinmurraywrote: Thanks Kevin! While I agree. I think we need to start somewhere. Being a complete cynic is never helpful. If we can get 5 people to acknowledge and maybe change their behavior and help their friends change theirs that would have an impact. |
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Been a cynic pretty much my whole life. Been seeing stupid in the mountains since 1969 and not much improvement since then. Not just climbers though, plenty of stupid to go around. |
