Adjustable Daisy's vs Adjustable Fifi

I've searched previous forums as much as I could but couldn't find a direct answer to this. 

For moving quickly on moderate aid routes that will include transitioning between free and aid (i'm thinking trade routes in the valley like the Nose, Salathe wall, Watkins, half dome etc.). What are the pros and cons of using adjustable daisy's vs adjustable Fifi? 

Bug Boywrote:

I've searched previous forums as much as I could but couldn't find a direct answer to this. 

For moving quickly on moderate aid routes that will include transitioning between free and aid (i'm thinking trade routes in the valley like the Nose, Salathe wall, Watkins, half dome etc.). What are the pros and cons of using adjustable daisy's vs adjustable Fifi? 

For moving quickly on easy routes like you've listed, no adjustable daisy and no adjustable fifi. 

Fail Fallingwrote:

For moving quickly on easy routes like you've listed, no adjustable daisy and no adjustable fifi. 

Ahah wondered if this might be the case. So on say the Nose there would not be any significant advantage to using an AJD or AJF compared to a normal Fifi/daisy combo? They just seem so high tech though!

If your climbing the an easy trade route like the nose don’t use daisies on lead. You will climb much faster without them. I wouldn’t climb with a fifi either. If you really need to take a rest use a draw. If your worried someone may drop an aided keep a spare in the haul bag. 

Bug Boywrote:

Ahah wondered if this might be the case. So on say the Nose there would not be any significant advantage to using an AJD or AJF compared to a normal Fifi/daisy combo? They just seem so high tech though!

Adjustables are very helpful on overhanging and traversing routes as well as routes that are heavy aid nailing. But for easy C2 trade routes, adjustables will tend to slow most people down as it's additional steps in the system and also very hard to not use them when you're tired instead of moving faster to complete the pitch before resting. 

My preferred setup is light nonasjustable daisies for the ladders and an adjustable fifi (allfifi) Using the allfifi is faster and more efficient than any other combination of adjustable fifi/daisy setups that I've encountered or used. But I use this setup for walls that are primarily aid and nailing. If I do a trade route then I leave the adjustable daisies at home and bring the allfifi if there's going to be any overhanging sections. With no overhanging sections I'll forgo the fifi altogether. 

sweet, appreciate everyones input, thanks!

I think the petzl evolve adjust is great and way better than an adjustable fifi but it’s best if you replace the 9mm  cord with 8mm cord and use ovals. This way it will run very smooth, much nicer and lighter than the adjustable fifi, and easy to release under tension while top stepping. Also makes for a great adjustable way to attach to anchors (especially if you choose to not tie into the end of the rope) and can be used to attach yourself to to ascenders while jugging. The adjustable fifi seems like an extra piece of gear while adjustable daisys can replace multiple pieces of gear. With the adjustable daisy (and fifi) you can easily pull yourself into a piece to the perfect length and immediately top step with some tension from the daisy, this is often much faster and easier than walking up your ladders, especially in steep/awkward aid terrain and if you are using light weight ladders. I have found the adjustable daisys to be very useful on easier aid/free routes.

I am a Die-Hard Alfifi user- and I’ll never go back to FIFI/Daisy for anything that’s on my To-Do list.. but the one downside is what to do with it while free climbing- especially in situations where you transition back and forth between free/aid. It’s long and doesn’t have a clip point so I find I’m tensioning the hook on a belay loop- which often pops off.. it also takes up more real estate at the hitch point than a regular fifi.. 

Quinn Hatfieldwrote:

I am a Die-Hard Alfifi user- and I’ll never go back to FIFI/Daisy for anything that’s on my To-Do list.. but the one downside is what to do with it while free climbing- especially in situations where you transition back and forth between free/aid. It’s long and doesn’t have a clip point so I find I’m tensioning the hook on a belay loop- which often pops off.. it also takes up more real estate at the hitch point than a regular fifi.. 

The allfifi has two holes on the buckle (one on either side). Run some thin cord through these holes and tie off the loop. Now you're got a loop that you can clip a biner to to attach the allfifi to your harness while you're not using it. 

Jake Squierwrote:

I think the petzl connect adjust is great and way better than an adjustable fifi but it’s best if you replace the 9mm  cord with 8mm cord and use ovals. This way it will run very smooth, much nicer and lighter than the adjustable fifi, and easy to release under tension while top stepping. Also makes for a great adjustable way to attach to anchors (especially if you choose to not tie into the end of the rope) and can be used to attach yourself to to ascenders while jugging. The adjustable fifi seems like an extra piece of gear while adjustable daisys can replace multiple pieces of gear. With the adjustable daisy (and fifi) you can easily pull yourself into a piece to the perfect length and immediately top step with some tension from the daisy, this is often much faster and easier than walking up your ladders, especially in steep/awkward aid terrain and if you are using light weight ladders. I have found the adjustable daisys to be very useful on easier aid/free routes.

Have to disagree. The Petzl connect adjust (which you shouldn't be using for aid, you should be using the Petzl Evolv Adjust) is definitely NOT easy to release under tension. (You have to significantly lessen the tension to allow it to extend, which can be done while top stepping but good luck if you're hanging in space) Additionally, you'll find that adjustables will not get you as close to your piece as a fifi will and the cluster of the petzl against the biner on your ladder makes transitioning from below to above the piece sloppy at times. the problem with saying that adjustable fifis are an extra piece of gear just shows that you're not using the adjustable fifi correctly. (That and when talking about the adjustable fifi, it should only be in reference to the Allfifi and maybe the aideerclimbing version as the kong slide and other adjustable fifis are not as smooth or efficient.)

Fail Fallingwrote:

The allfifi has two holes on the buckle (one on either side). Run some thin cord through these holes and tie off the loop. Now you're got a loop that you can clip a biner to to attach the allfifi to your harness while you're not using it. 

Nice one! Thanks Kevin.

Fail Fallingwrote:

The allfifi has two holes on the buckle (one on either side). Run some thin cord through these holes and tie off the loop. Now you're got a loop that you can clip a biner to to attach the allfifi to your harness while you're not using it. 

Just one more reason why I love you Kevin! I’ve got a new Alfifi in the box I’ll thread up like this! 

Fail Fallingwrote:

Have to disagree. The Petzl connect adjust (which you shouldn't be using for aid, you should be using the Petzl Evolv Adjust) is definitely NOT easy to release under tension. (You have to significantly lessen the tension to allow it to extend, which can be done while top stepping but good luck if you're hanging in space) Additionally, you'll find that adjustables will not get you as close to your piece as a fifi will and the cluster of the petzl against the biner on your ladder makes transitioning from below to above the piece sloppy at times. the problem with saying that adjustable fifis are an extra piece of gear just shows that you're not using the adjustable fifi correctly. (That and when talking about the adjustable fifi, it should only be in reference to the Allfifi and maybe the aideerclimbing version as the kong slide and other adjustable fifis are not as smooth or efficient.)

I meant evolve adjust though I replace the cord anyway so it’s all the same. I agree that it is a pain to adjust under tension with the factory cord, but replacing it makes it much easier. Replacing the cord also lets you configure it in a way that allows you to get a bit closer compared to the factory sewn loop, (see photo). While not as close as a normal fifi, this has never seemed to be a problem for me, I always seem to want more length to get higher, not less. I like to keep my ladder on a separate oval carabiner. If you’ve never played with an evolve adjust that has been modified with 8mil cord, I highly recommend it, it’s very smooth. But lots of people love the Allfifi and have done some bad ass speedy ascents using it! I’ve played with one and struggle to see how it does anything better than my modified evolve adjust, but maybe I am missing something. I've never used an Allfifi on a wall, only messed with one on the ground.  

Sounds like a lot of this is personal preference that someone would gain from using both. It does seem like the adjustable fifi would be more annoying to leave on your harness while free climbing or jugging than adjustable daisy's would be. 

Bug Boywrote:

Sounds like a lot of this is personal preference that someone would gain from using both. It does seem like the adjustable fifi would be more annoying to leave on your harness while free climbing or jugging than adjustable daisy's would be. 

No more annoying than a pas on your harness when freeclimbing. And definitely less annoying than having to deal with two adjustable daisies 

Jake Squierwrote:

But lots of people love the Allfifi and have done some bad ass speedy ascents using it! I’ve played with one and struggle to see how it does anything better than my modified evolve adjust, but maybe I am missing something. I've never used an Allfifi on a wall, only messed with one on the ground.  

So with an allfifi, the adjustability of the daisy is irrelevant because you never adjust them. Basically once you've made your next placement and clipped your ladder to it and done your bounce tests, you reach down to grab the allfifi and extend it as you reach up to clip it to your ladder on the next placement. No need to extend and adjust the two daisies separately.  

Of course it's all personal preference.

But.... I'm with Jake. All this alfifi fanfare has never made sense to me. That being said, do what makes sense to you.

The Petzl evolv adjust system with 8 mil cord and tied appropriately so as to allow pulling in tight to the piece is a darn slick system that works darn well when streamlined.

The main downside of the alfifi system to me is Skots insistence that you can't body bounce test on it. I'm not down with the stomp bounce test bs.  Place your piece, clip your ladder with adjust (on separate biners so the adjust biner slides up the ladder biner when top stepping), body bounce, and keep moving. Simple as that.

And yes, I think the two adjustables coming down to one bight interferes with my harness junkshow scene less than two daisies and the alfifi would. 

Again, just one man's preference. Works for me.

Wall climbing is all about studying what's out there, using some thought, and choosing the system that works for you.

Brandon Adamswrote:

Of course it's all personal preference.

But.... I'm with Jake. All this alfifi fanfare has never made sense to me. That being said, do what makes sense to you.

There’s a lot of good points in all these comments.. and while I don’t totally agree on all of them- ultimately “personal preference” will rule- and picking a system that “makes sense to you” is the best advice you can get.. it’s got to be second nature and have good flow.. that could be different for each of us. 

I’m old school- we used old style Daisy’s and Fixed Fifi- get the length right so you can top step- and develop the habit of never hooking it anywhere but the highest point on a piece and you can move pretty quick. 

When I got back in to walls after many years off- I defaulted to that original system.. then tried the Petzl evolve. then added an Alfifi to the Petzl- then did a wall without the Alfifi- just the Petzl and the static Fifi.. for me that was a pretty good system.. I never swapped out the cord- so it wasn’t easy to release- but I rarely adjusted the length- but if I needed to it was easy. Great for tethering at belays, jugging or climbing roofs... my biggest issue was the girth hitch at the tie in point pulling my harness together.. 

So for me- I just thought it out and played with some different things. I wanted to easily body bounce test on a static line, I wanted to free up space at the tie in, and I wanted ease of adjustment under tension.. I also got a full 23kn tether system (unnecessary- but not a bad thing) and a great conversation starter 

Behold- The Cock Ring:

Not suggesting anyone try this- 

Just agreeing that it’s personal- and you’ll have to try some shit out 

I use the same "Cock Ring" as Quinn but through the tie in points and cloved the Evolv.

The evolv stays extended and is only used for belay comfort and jugging adjustment. I'm all about the Alfrifi for leading.  

Brothers

Quinn Hatfieldwrote:

Brothers

Cock Brothers 

Fail Fallingwrote:

The allfifi has two holes on the buckle (one on either side). Run some thin cord through these holes and tie off the loop. Now you're got a loop that you can clip a biner to to attach the allfifi to your harness while you're not using it. 

Excellent!  Sorry to revive this thread but had to say a "Thank you" to Kevin for this.

This is exactly the answer I had to my question that I've been pondering since last weekend on my first aid foray.