Using a micro-trax to climb multi-pitch trad in a group of 3?

I just returned home from a multi-pitch trad weekend with two friends. We had the first follower attached with a locker on a figure 8 on a bight, then the second follow was tied at the end of the rope ~15-20ft below the first follower. The first follower would clean most of the gear and leave directionals to protect the second follower from any potential swings.

On my 6 hour drive home I thought: why doesn't the first follower just use a micro-trax, that way they don't have to coordinate so heavily with the second follower, and both can just climb at their own pace? I've never heard of this being done, so maybe I'm missing a really compelling reason as to why not, but it seems like a pretty sweet setup for climbing in a group of 3 

Think about possible failure scenarios of the traxion and the resulting consequences.

Edit to add: 

I think Miles has it right below when he says the suggested method introduces safety issues without really serving the intended purpose. But for future reference, here is a link to Petzl’s top rope solo pages with considerations on safety and redundancy.
https://m.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/General-principles-for-solo-climbing-with-a-fixed-belay-rope?ActivityName=rock-climbing

I don't think this would allow the second follower to climb at their own pace. The microtrax would make it more difficult to belay the bottom follower, because you could only make the belay tight for the top follower (microtrax would prevent any rope from being pulled up below the it). This doesn't on the surface sound worse than the previous setup you described, except: as the top follower climbs and the microtrax moves up, the belay essential remains "tight" for them, but continues adding distance for the bottom follower that the belayer can't take up, so it's very likely that the bottom follower would end up with lots of slack that the belayer can't do anything about. Unlike the setup you described, this slack doesn't go away when the first follower climbs up, because the microtrax just slides up the rope.

I feel like two ropes would solve all of this entirely. Just have the leader clip both ropes through anything that needs a directional. 

This is kinda a cool idea and would allow the top follower to move at their own pace (probably want to back up the single trax with a second progress capture device, similar to TR solo). However, why would the top follower need to climb faster than the bottom follower? You're going to be waiting at the belay for the final follower anyways. Might as well take a few small rests and enjoy the climbing together rather than race through it.

As it's been mentioned, 2 ropes is better in almost every scenario. Plus you don't need to carry a tag line.

I've heard this works OK but haven't tried it myself.

If you're willing to carry a second rope a civilized way to do party-of-three is for the second follower to trail the second rope. When they get to the belay this rope is fixed and the third microtrax's up it. The really nice thing about this setup is you never have three climbers and two climbers crowding a single belay, plus the leader doesn't have to pull up two ropes. The third is also independent and has the freedom to repeat pitches if things are taking a while, booty gear, or hang out on alternate ledges if another party raps through. 

What I've done (quite a bit) is have two ropes, the leader fixes one for the person on the traxion and belays the other up normally. This allows the person on the fixed line to take their time, and the leader and belayed follower can start on the next pitch before the person traxioning finishes, if desired.

I like to have the second TR Solo the route (belay rigged and tied off) and have the third (weakest climber) follow as usual afterwards. Slower than two ropes though since you're waiting on the second to reach the anchor. 

Not a fan of two ropes in general. Other methods work well too, I just prefer it since I TR solo often and some of my partners do as well. 

If I understand you correctly, you basically want a normal belaying situation for the second follower, while the first follower "top rope solos" using a MICROTRAXION on the line. 

This is both a bad idea and not possible. It's primarily a consequence of the fact that the MICROTRAXION only allows movement in one direction and only locks up in the opposite direction, while the use you're describing would require that the rope be allowed to both move freely in both directions ("up" through the device such that the belayer can pull up slack for the second follower, and "down" through the device so the first follower can ascend the rope as normal) as well as lock in both directions (in response to the rope moving "up" through the device if the first follower falls, and in response to the rope moving "down" through the device if the second follower falls). Since this isn't possible, the situation would turn into a struggle where the second follower always has a bunch of slack out unless the first follower completely disengages the MICROTRAXION.

The best solution is to use two ropes. 

A second solution could be that the belayer fixes the single rope, the second follower stays put at the anchor, and the first follower climbs the entirety of the pitch by using the MICROTRAXION as a top rope solo device (which is its own complicated, dicey process, see the considerations in the series of articles that starts here: https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/To-read-for-self-belaying?ActivityName=rock-climbing). (Edit: While I was typing this, a bunch of other people said this exact thing. Didn't mean to repeat it a bunch!)

Another (non-ideal arrangement) if using one rope could be to have *both* followers TR solo at the same time; in this case each follower can move independently. Problem: if the lower follower falls off, the upper climber could get "flossed" off the rock. In most situations this could be unpleasant but not necessarily hazardous, though in traversing terrain it could cause a bad outcome. On easier ground (falls unlikely) with fairly straight pitches it could be acceptable for them to climb on the same strand at the same time. 

On harder terrain where falls are more likely, the followers should probably go one at a time, assuming a single rope. But they can still both TR solo. If pitches are a half rope length (and thus there is plenty of spare rope at the belay), once the first second gets to the anchor they can put the leader on belay so he can start leading again while the lower second is following the pitch below.  This is actually a pretty smooth and efficient system, and is pretty much the same arrangement as has been used for decades for efficient big wall climbing in a party of 3 (except in this case they are TR soloing instead of jugging).

This is all a lot of shenanigans though. In the end it is probably better to lead on a set of double ropes, with one follower on each strand. Belay both followers at the same time with a guide-mode device. This is pretty standard protocol, is speedy and works well, and doesn't require any excessively "modern" tactics. Main downside is you need two ropes. This is no big deal if you have some nice skinny 8.2-8.5 mm double ropes. Trying the same system using two fat single ropes is a much less pleasant arrangement. 

Side point: 15-20 feet is in my opinion not enough separation between 2nd and 3rd for simul-follow on the same rope. If the 2nd climber falls early enough on the pitch, skinnier rope +  rope stretch combined with belay slack could put the 2nd on the 3rd's head. 

I prefer 30 feet or more between the two climbers. 

Also, it is the 3rd's duty to not let slack build up between 2nd and 3rd, because if the 3rd pitches off with a lot of slack, #2 is going for a big ride too.

Lastly, is your multipitch hurry such that you have to add on risk like this? Why not a 2nd rope? I don't ask in a lecturing tone - I've done party-of-3 multi-pitch on a single-rope (hyphenation sensation!) quite a bit myself. Sometimes it made a difference time-wise, sometimes its probably didn't. However, I only did this with very reliable and strong partners. (we did a lot of it as a team of three and we only fell on each other's head once, each!) :)

"Put the noob in the middle" was a tact, for far easier climbs where some noob needed close supervision. Example: my daughter following her first multi-pitch. She followed and cleaned and my super strong main partner trailed her and offered coaching, etc. You've really gotta take an (unpaid) guide mentality when climbing like this, so does the other experience partner. No falls allowed by the 3rd!

Introducing a trax self-belay for a single rope doesn't make much actual sense, to me.

Works for me, not the absolute safest tech. The third has to be solid.

Pull all the slack, second climbs on a Mini, third waits for a bit, depending on speed and the terrain. Belay as usual. 

Or.. fix the line, second climbs on a Mini, third self-belays with their GriGri while leader short-fixes to a highpoint and is back on belay when second arrives at the anchor. This works well on easier terrain.. and if you're trying to get finished before the next ice age hits

Thanks for the fantastic advice everyone! It's clear now that just a little more critical thinking would have ruled out the micro trax idea I outlined in the original post (thanks to Pat Light for pointing out the obvious, hahaha)

Now I have some great tricks to use on my next adventure as a trio :)

If you're climbing something with two ropes, the first can lead, pull up the second trailing the second rope, tie the second rope direct to the anchor.  The second can then belay the leader and the third basically TR solo on a microtrax (or other TR solo system).  Climbs almost as fast as a group of 2, but you do need the second rope unless the pitches are small enough to use 1 (alpine butterfly in the middle and tie the second half direct to the anchor).  Never tried this but have heard it works well.

Andre Chiquito wrote:

Thanks for the fantastic advice everyone! It's clear now that just a little more critical thinking would have ruled out the micro trax idea I outlined in the original post (thanks to Pat Light for pointing out the obvious, hahaha)

Now I have some great tricks to use on my next adventure as a trio :)

Well, think again. The third climbs just slow enough to not gather slack. Just like most everything, try it on the ground to grasp the nuances

The last climber can tie in to the end and use a grigri as well to manage some slack. I always try to put the stronger of the two followers as the last, so they can either keep up or wait patiently for the middle. 

I've actually done this quite a lot and have seen others doing as well - but limited to easier climbs.  I've also done it with doubles with 2 people on each rope - party of 5 - moving at a pretty good clip.  The climber on the microtrax is the better of the 2 climbers.  They can climb faster no issues, rocketing all the way up to the belay if they want - but also once in a while they generally need to "thumb the cam" to let the lower climber move up.  There is also daisy or PAS or whatever to extend the microtrax - super helpful for rope drag, etc.

Bill Schick wrote:

I've actually done this quite a lot and have seen others doing as well - but limited to easier climbs.  I've also done it with doubles with 2 people on each rope - party of 5 - moving at a pretty good clip.  The climber on the microtrax is the better of the 2 climbers.  They can climb faster no issues, rocketing all the way up to the belay if they want - but also once in a while they generally need to "thumb the cam" to let the lower climber move up.  There is also daisy or PAS or whatever to extend the microtrax - super helpful for rope drag, etc.

Man.. wait'll the Facebook TRS Pros get a load of this.. 

One Micro on a daisy/PAS! 

Better break out the radiation suit for the fallout.. hahahaa