Skillzboard - teach, learn, or practice anchor/rope skills anywhere!

Hey everyone!

I'm starting a small company with four of my recently graduated engineering students to produce an easily mounted, portable, weight-bearing anchor board that you can use to teach, learn or practice a number of rope and anchor skills: from cleaning a sport anchor to self-rescue tricks to haul systems. We are currently taking preorders through a crowdfunding campaign that we just launched earlier this week.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/skillzboard-climbing-anchor-practice-made-easy/x/24569318#/

Coming soon: Virtual, interactive classes for future Skillzboard owners, offered by certified guides and climbing instructors. Early supporters get discounts on classes and other goodies!

Interesting concept, it'll be interesting to see if this gets off the ground. Nice work so far!

Initial thoughts: this looks really simple and I could make one at home for <$20 anchors included. If you come in at a reasonable price (<$40) I might be interested. 

The doubled use as a hangboard is really promising concept. The shot of someone doing pullups assisted by weights through the anchors was what really sold it for me. I want a hangboard that doubles as an anchor trainer rather than vice versa.

To someone who has no concept of using basic power tools... sure, looks interesting.

To me... It's straight up robbery. $100? Really?

I can make this for like 15 bucks or so.  Most of the cost being the bolt and hanger, Agree that if you can get the price around 40, including the mounting system youd have a good customer base

I made one of these with a 2 x 4 and some free old bolts someone on MP sent me. I really love the idea though. 

Max R wrote:

To me... It's straight up robbery. $100? Really?

A few threads up from this, someone is selling a used wooden hangboard for $100. And it’ll be gone by the end of the day. No one's forcing you to buy this, but we do need to at least break even.

This has all of the material and machining requirements of a wooden hangboard, plus additional hand-installed hardware and mounting systems that allow you to weight the board in any number of locations, without requiring you to find studs and drill holes in your wall. And it has to be stable against asymmetric load, not scratch up your door or car window, and not fall apart after a hundred bodyweight loads and unloads.

Sure, if we moved all the manufacturing overseas instead of doing it locally, we could drop the price a bit. But at the $40 price point mentioned upthread we’d still be losing money on each board even if we moved production to Asia. We are choosing to keep manufacturing local, especially now, with job losses in the US at pretty high levels.

If we find there’s a lot of demand for a much more basic lower cost system, we would consider building from cheaper materials and skipping a lot of the finishing and do a no-warranty version at a lower price point. 

t.farrell wrote:

What’s the advantage of weight bearing anchor training? I use the rod in the my closet or my bookshelf with some girth hitched loops as pseudo anchors which has worked great (and free)

With a Skillzboard, you can:

Clean a sport anchor, teach a friend to give a slingshot top rope belay, teach a friend to give a guide mode top belay, practice escaping a belay for an SPI test, set up a rappel with a new device, practice how you’d rappel if you drop your new device, figure out how to give a guide mode top belay when you dropped your guide mode belay device, learn how to pick off an injured climber, optimize a multipitch transition from a hanging belay, learn how to lower a second on a guide mode device, figure out whether you prefer using body weight hauling or rigging a mechanical advantage haul system to efficiently bring up a 50 lb haul bag, practice a lower out, get efficient at setting up your new portaledge before you get on your big wall project ... and several more things that the rod in your closet isn’t suitable for.

Gokul G wrote:

A few threads up from this, someone is selling a used wooden hangboard for $100. And it’ll be gone by the end of the day.

This has all of the material and machining requirements of a wooden hangboard, plus additional hand-installed hardware and mounting systems that allow you to weight the board in any number of locations, without requiring you to find studs and drill holes in your wall. And it has to be stable against asymmetric load, not scratch up your door or car window, and not fall apart after a hundred bodyweight loads and unloads.

Sure, if we moved all the manufacturing overseas instead of doing it locally, we could drop the price a bit. But at the $40 price point mentioned upthread we’d still be losing money on each board even if we moved production to Asia. We are choosing to keep manufacturing local, especially now, with job losses in the US at pretty high levels.

If we find there’s a lot of demand for a much more basic lower cost system, we would consider building from cheaper materials and skipping a lot of the finishing and do a no-warranty version at a lower price point. 

I mean the same machining requirements yes, but significantly less machining time compared to a well featured hangboard. Also, just wondering what cheaper materials could there be and what would be simpler than a board with three bolts in it?

I'm also wondering, what makes it more load bearing than if I were to drill a hole in say 18mm hardwood plywood and install a bolt in it?

For the price I'm just thinking it seems like it would have more of a market to a gym or perhaps someone who guides rather than to individual climbers (How often are you teaching people how to clean anchors, and at what point would you decide to spend 80$ to do so over just larks footing some slings and biners over a railing or something? and from another perspective is it a good idea to be encouraging newbies to go buy this and learn how to clean anchors off some youtube videos?). Most wooden hangboards (at least the ones from europe) aren't that expensive, minus the beastmaker at a whopping 90usd, the new lattice triple rung hangboard is 61usd, spinchboard hybrid 80usd, gripmonkeys 60usd, and they're all training items that you'll use all the time, I think you'll find very few people who practice anchor building two hours a week for three years!

Not trying to be a dick, it seems like a good product, I just don't see it as being something I could possibly recommend to anyone at that price!

On the potentially helpful suggestion side, wouldn't it be better to use rounded bolt hangers like those madrock ones or the bolt products ones so you can add the extra feature of bailing through the bolt hangers? a couple dollars extra at most compared the the bargain basement hangars if at all.

Tiktian Chan wrote:

I mean the same machining requirements yes, but significantly less machining time compared to a well featured hangboard. Also, just wondering what cheaper materials could there be and what would be simpler than a board with three bolts in it?

We use a high-strength, high quality plywood with thick surface veneers (with fewer visual defects and weak points), made from Baltic birch. The bolt holes in the plywood are recessed in the back and predrilled to accept tee nuts (or threaded inserts), which come installed in the board. Our tee nuts are also near the high end of quality, to improve lifetime over repeated impact loads. The countersinks are required to prevent the tee nuts from sticking out the back and scratching up surfaces the board is used against. The edges of the board are chamfered to provide a comfortable, incut crimp to pull yourself up onto to the board when clipping in. The biner holes and the strap slots are all radiused on the front and back, to prevent wear from the biner on the wood, and wear from the wood on the straps. The back of the board is also protected with felt pads to prevent the edges of the board from dinging your door and to deaden sound from impact against the door. The front has soft material washers between the board and hangers to prevent the hangers from marring the wood. The entire board is actually slightly non-rectangular (hard to tell from pictures, but none of the edges are straight lines) and is shaped to improve usability and stability with respect to asymmetric loads applied on end anchors. All surfaces are sanded to 240 grit and the board is given two layers of water-resistant coating to improve endurance and lifetime. In addition to the three hangers, every Skillzboard also comes with a pair of quick links and rap rings.

Unlike a wooden hangboard, we have to machine both surfaces of the Skillzboard - front and back. This significantly increases machining time and cost.

For the price I'm just thinking it seems like it would have more of a market to a gym or perhaps someone who guides rather than to individual climbers (How often are you teaching people how to clean anchors, and at what point would you decide to spend 80$ to do so over just larks footing some slings and biners over a railing or something? 

If you go over my previous response in this thread, you'll find that this is a tool you can use to teach, learn or practice a number of skills, from beginner things like building and cleaning anchors, all the way to (self) rescue techniques and big wall tricks. I have used it to teach several of these things. And I use it also to play with new gear or test and practice new techniques or tricks.

and from another perspective is it a good idea to be encouraging newbies to go buy this and learn how to clean anchors off some youtube videos?). 

They are doing this anyway. Except they watch something on Youtube, get the basic idea, and think they've got the skill mastered without even testing their understanding. This false sense of competence is something that has been fairly well documented in several arenas. We think the Skillzboard allows them to actually try out what they think they understood, and practice it multiple times, if needed, until they are actually comfortable with it. As an example, I was recently showing someone the girth hitch masterpoint over a Zoom session, and they exclaimed about how simple and cool it was. A few minutes later they asked me to show them the method again because they had tried it and couldn't figure out how to do it themselves ... even though it looked extremely simple the first time.

We are also working out details of relationships with guide services that give Skillzboard customers access and discounts to online classes with guided instruction.

Most wooden hangboards (at least the ones from europe) aren't that expensive, minus the beastmaker at a whopping 90usd, the new lattice triple rung hangboard is 61usd, spinchboard hybrid 80usd, gripmonkeys 60usd, and they're all training items that you'll use all the time, I think you'll find very few people who practice anchor building two hours a week for three years!

The beastmaker retails at $120 US. How much do you spend on a studfinder? And what kind of time does it take you to drill and mount a hangboard? And what if you're in a rental apartment where you're going to lose your security deposit when you do that? Or what if you have to move and do this all over again? The Skillzboard requires machining on both sides, and comes with mounting systems that allow you to set up in a couple minutes or less, at home, outside, or on your car or van if you're doing a road trip or you live in a van. And like I mentioned before, you can learn and practice a lifetime's worth of skills - it's definitely not limited to just anchor building.

And when you buy anything more than our most basic model, you also get the Chockboard, which doubles as a simple fingerboard that can be mounted horizontally or vertically, and lets you also do pinches and fingerlocks (I've not seen this on any traditional hangboard). But to be clear, we are not intending for the Skillzboard to primarily be a strength trainer. We are proposing that it could also serve as a strength trainer that allows you to do things you don't see on a traditional hangboard. 

Not trying to be a dick, it seems like a good product, I just don't see it as being something I could possibly recommend to anyone at that price!

This feedback is useful. We've been considering doing a much more bare-bones version of the board, with wider tolerances for cosmetic details, finish, ergonomics and longevity - and this is another data point to support that idea. This might be something that happens in the near future.

On the potentially helpful suggestion side, wouldn't it be better to use rounded bolt hangers like those madrock ones or the bolt products ones so you can add the extra feature of bailing through the bolt hangers? a couple dollars extra at most compared the the bargain basement hangars if at all.

Thanks for the suggestion. We have not looked into this option because our manufacturing costs are already pretty high (yes, we would be losing money rapidly if we priced our current boards at $40, and that's assuming we had no additional costs - R&D, insurance, taxes, website, IP, legal, marketing, storage, packaging, etc. - beyond manufacture). But it's something we will definitely look into for future versions.

i just dont personally like how the bolts are so close together and perfectly close, irl wont always be that way..i wouldve been sold if it were like a 2'x2' that came with bolted holes in random places where you can take the anchors and move them around so you can practice equalizing and all that along with setting up anchors and rigging systems..i do love the concept though because im actually in the process of making one of my own but with more anchor slots in awkward places for a little more realism, and honestly for convenience and all the parts to come with i dont think its a bad price specially made here in the good old USA..dont let peoples opinions steer you away, if you want to turn this into a business i say go for it, i do think alot of people will purchase this, specially new climbers because it is a very very good tool to have or make imo...if i werent already making one, id honestly buy one..

Even $40 would be generous.

Basing a pretty steep cost on the idea that another company charges a bunch for their wooden hangboard, well, I wish you the best, but I can't see the market for them exploding. The real issue, to me, is that there's a gap in the market- either there's bright eyed people learning and practicing, who might be inclined to pick one up, and then there's people who would be teaching skills, who've already made their own for an eighth of the cost.

Nathan wrote:

Even $40 would be generous.

Like I've said earlier, at that price point we would lose money, even without factoring costs beyond manufacture.

Basing a pretty steep cost on the idea that another company charges a bunch for their wooden hangboard, well, I wish you the best, but I can't see the market for them exploding. 

We do not base our price on the price of other products. And our margins are actually smaller than the industry standard. I refer to other products to explain why our manufacturing costs might be higher than people seem to think they should be. And that's with us basically working for free on this for the last several months.

The real issue, to me, is that there's a gap in the market- either there's bright eyed people learning and practicing, who might be inclined to pick one up, and then there's people who would be teaching skills, who've already made their own for an eighth of the cost.

I guess we will find out and learn and adapt. 

michael sami wrote:

i just dont personally like how the bolts are so close together and perfectly close, irl wont always be that way..i wouldve been sold if it were like a 2'x2' that came with bolted holes in random places where you can take the anchors and move them around so you can practice equalizing and all that along with setting up anchors and rigging systems..i do love the concept though because im actually in the process of making one of my own but with more anchor slots in awkward places for a little more realism, and honestly for convenience and all the parts to come with i dont think its a bad price specially made here in the good old USA..dont let peoples opinions steer you away, if you want to turn this into a business i say go for it, i do think alot of people will purchase this, specially new climbers because it is a very very good tool to have or make imo...if i werent already making one, id honestly buy one..

Thanks for the feedback, Michael. 

We have run through about a dozen different prototypes (some larger, some smaller, some with more options for bolt locations, some with fewer) before we settled on the final version. We realize we will not make everyone happy. Ultimately we chose a size that mimics the typical spacing found in most bolted anchors in the US and Europe (the board can be rotated by 90 degrees to simulate vertically offset anchors which are commonly found in European crags), and is small and light enough to be portable and easily fit in a backpack if you want to take it out to the crag, or set it up on your car or van. After playing with versions that had more options for bolt locations, we realized there is some but not a whole lot of benefit to being able to equalize from several slightly different locations. With our board, you can equalize from three significantly different sets of 3-point anchor locations (Left, Right, Bottom; L,R, Top; and say, L,T,B) and by varying the location of the masterpoint, you can make additional tweaks. We realized we will never really come close to enabling a true life-size simulation of a gear anchor though, as placements are often several feet apart. 

In the near future, we are working to release gear placement pieces as add-ons, that can be screwed into the Skillzboard, that will allow you to place passive and active protection and simulate a scaled-down version of a gear anchor. 

I'm very interested in this product as a new climber looking for something to help me be of use to my climbing partner who knows the ropes. Does this benefit the ice climber in any way? Also, would using ice tools with the hang board be recommended or frowned upon (am I going to rip the wood apart with my picks while hanging from them)? 

Also, does this only benefit the climber learning how to lead or does it apply to those who want to top rope as well? 

Gokul G wrote:

Like I've said earlier, at that price point we would lose money, even without factoring costs beyond manufacture.

We do not base our price on the price of other products. And our margins are actually smaller than the industry standard. I refer to other products to explain why our manufacturing costs might be higher than people seem to think they should be. And that's with us basically working for free on this for the last several months.

I guess we will find out and learn and adapt. 

I wish you nothing but luck

I think it's a cool idea and could work for people who:  have plenty of money to toss around, live in small spaces, and aren't very industrious. There's probably a subset of the climbing community that has all those qualities. Not sure if there are enough of them who also are super interested in improving their skills. 

For the rest of us who don't fit into the above (like me):  I have a shelf in my garage that I built from 2x4's and plywood. Cost me way less than your board for the entire 2'x8'x6' shelving unit. Long ago I bought a handful of screw eyes from Home Depot for a few bucks and made exactly what you have on my shelf. Not only that but I added some "cracks" with scrap wood blocks so I could use gear and not just bolts. I can now practice systems with gear and bolts at various heights and configurations. All for a few bucks. 

Anyway it sounds like I'm being a downer but I just think the overlap of people who want this, would be able to afford it, and can't make it themselves is pretty small. Wouldn't shock me if I was wrong though, there are a lot of people in the world. I applaud the effort and have no doubt that you'll make good use of it for yourselves. 

Jay A wrote:

I'm very interested in this product as a new climber looking for something to help me be of use to my climbing partner who knows the ropes. Does this benefit the ice climber in any way? Also, would using ice tools with the hang board be recommended or frowned upon (am I going to rip the wood apart with my picks while hanging from them)? 

Hi Jay, the short answer is yes. Here's the longer version:

1. Building strong and safe ice anchors, beyond the actual protection used (ice screws vs bolts) uses concepts that are fundamentally similar to fixed anchors, and have a geometry of screw placements that is well replicated on a Skillzboard. An ice anchor has usually two (sometimes three) screws separated by not more than a foot or two, with a vertical offset for better redundancy (cracks in water ice tend to propagate horizontally), just like you will find on a Skillzboard. Note: It's also possible to use the Skillzboard rotated by 90 degrees, in a vertical orientation, if you want to simulate a 3-point ice anchor.

2. For training purposes, I would not use tools directly on the Skillzboard. But the modular nature of the board allows you to bolt cheap wooden or foam blocks onto the board that can then be replaced as needed, as your picks will damage them. 

Also, does this only benefit the climber learning how to lead or does it apply to those who want to top rope as well? 

We have used this to teach new climbers how to give a top rope (ie: slingshot) belay and lower a climber on top rope using different belay devices. At most crags, a slingshot belay from the base of the route is the most common top rope system. However, at some crags, you will need to know how to handle a top managed system, and that's something you can also learn and practice with a Skillzboard. Down the road, it's also useful for practicing more advanced skills that go with top-rope climbing as much as with lead climbing: such as knowing how to go hands-free or escape the belay if there's an accident or injury or other unexpected situation to deal with (a crag animal eating your lunch?). Some of these advanced safety skills are used extremely rarely, if ever, which makes periodic practice a crucial way to keep the techniques fresh for when you actually have to use them to deal with an unexpected situation.

drew A wrote:

I think it's a cool idea and could work for people who:  have plenty of money to toss around, live in small spaces, and aren't very industrious. There's probably a subset of the climbing community that has all those qualities. Not sure if there are enough of them who also are super interested in improving their skills. 

For the rest of us who don't fit into the above (like me):  I have a shelf in my garage that I built from 2x4's and plywood. Cost me way less than your board for the entire 2'x8'x6' shelving unit. Long ago I bought a handful of screw eyes from Home Depot for a few bucks and made exactly what you have on my shelf. Not only that but I added some "cracks" with scrap wood blocks so I could use gear and not just bolts. I can now practice systems with gear and bolts at various heights and configurations. All for a few bucks. 

Anyway it sounds like I'm being a downer but I just think the overlap of people who want this, would be able to afford it, and can't make it themselves is pretty small. Wouldn't shock me if I was wrong though, there are a lot of people in the world. I applaud the effort and have no doubt that you'll make good use of it for yourselves. 

Not a downer. This is all useful feedback and will help us decide which way to go with the next round of boards (cheaper and more stripped down?) and accessories (gear blocks that I described in an earlier comment, that would screw into the threaded inserts, to help practice placements, gear anchors, as well as jams).

I'd venture that your garage system doesn't allow you to set it up on your car/van if you're doing a road trip, or off a tree by the trailhead, or slip it into your backpack and take it up to the crag? We determined from surveys and feedback from conversations with climbers and guides, that portability was a particularly useful characteristic of the boards. But it's entirely possible the broader market might reject that idea.

This is a great idea! I put this up at my local crag last year. Recycled bolts from a bolt replacement project screwed into a belay platform retaining wall.