Trad Mock-Lead Setup?

Hi all,
as crags start to open, I wanted to practice mock-leading ahead of a trad leading class I'm going to take soon, so that we don't have to waste too much time learning gear placements during the class. So here's my thought- I climb up normally on top-rope belay, except also I'm placing gear and clipping a second rope as a go up-- but the second rope is not being belayed by anyone. Then, when I want to practice 'falling,' my belayer gives a bunch of slack on TR, goes hands free (w/ gri/gri and a knot tied below), then picks up second rope and puts it on belay. I climb a foot or so higher than the last piece, then fall and let my belayer catch on lead. I was thinking that my belayer could basket hitch a sling to their harness so it declutter's his belay loop, and he can put the second device arresting the lead fall on the sling. If the piece pulls out during the 'fall' (knowing me, it will), the TR catches me. Does this sound safe? Obviously, I'd do it high on the climb, helmets, etc. etc.
Thanks!

Terrible Climberwrote: Hi all,
as crags start to open, I wanted to practice mock-leading ahead of a trad leading class I'm going to take soon, so that we don't have to waste too much time learning gear placements during the class. So here's my thought- I climb up normally on top-rope belay, except also I'm placing gear and clipping a second rope as a go up-- but the second rope is not being belayed by anyone. Then, when I want to practice 'falling,' my belayer gives a bunch of slack on TR, goes hands free (w/ gri/gri and a knot tied below), then picks up second rope and puts it on belay. I climb a foot or so higher than the last piece, then fall and let my belayer catch on lead. I was thinking that my belayer could basket hitch a sling to their harness so it declutter's his belay loop, and he can put the second device arresting the lead fall on the sling. If the piece pulls out during the 'fall' (knowing me, it will), the TR catches me. Does this sound safe? Obviously, I'd do it high on the climb, helmets, etc. etc.
Thanks!

Sounds like you got it. Although, I don't think you really need to fall on every piece. I'd recommend you do what you were thinking, but instead of a second rope, and taking falls, just have your buddy re-climb up and inspect your placements. Falling when you otherwise wouldnt is just asking for trouble. I'm assuming you have an experienced partner, or you wouldn't be able to get the TR set up.

Aiding on top rope is a good option too.  Stay on top rope the entire time but place gear, pull on it, clip a sling into it and stand/bounce test it.  Watch out for pieces popping and scaring your money maker

You don’t really need to practice falling on gear. I’d recommend mock leading as it does build competency selecting gear, selecting placements, improves speed, etc... One tweak I use for new climbers is to send them up with the rack. They lead the pitch, then clean on the way down. Set the gear they used aside and have them go up again with what’s left. This will improve your creativity. Same for building anchors. Keep doing this until you’re going up the pitch with basically nothing left, or building an anchor with junk. You’d be surprised what you can do with basically nothing. Select a crack which has a good variety sf sizes for this purpose. Also helps to have a much more experienced climber coaching you through when you don’t have much left to work with.

As for practicing falling, I’d do this only minimally and separate from mock leading. Find a vertical to overhanging wall. Use a bolt or bomber backed up gear. Start with falls on top rope, increasing slack as you go. Then gradually move above your piece higher and higher. Don’t use slack in the system as your means of creating bigger falls once above your gear. Climb higher instead and fall as this will mimic a real fall rather than a big slack loop. Don’t jump or push off. Falling is a skill, but it’s not something that needs to be practiced often or in much depth, and certainly not to the extreme. 

Ok, thanks for the feedback everyone. Sounds like falling on gear isn't really something you need to practice, but more so it's important to practice placing gear, and perhaps weighting it, but not falling? In that case, I'll just probably place and weight or place and then practice clipping alpine draws (which I have discovered from practice at home are a heck of a lot different from gym draws) into a "tail" of 8mm cordellete, then yeah, have partner go up and inspect. 

FWIW, you can place gear on the ground... mostly, if it looks sketchy it is sketchy.  Yard on it, see what sticks, see what is a pain in the ass to remove from the rock.  You don't necessarially need to be on a climb to get value out of that process.

Aiding stuff (on lead, on TR, or solo w/ a clove or whatever is also a really helpful, as you have to weight stuff to pass it.

That plus just going and leading stuff that was way under my ability taught me a lot.  That's the main way I've learned.

I would have rather followed around some better climbers and see what/how they do stuff... IME, cleaning other people's pitches is an excellent way to learn (even if they suck, cause you can usually see if a placement is bullshit).

Obsessively watching dozens and dozens of YT videos is not optimal, but I've done that too.  Better to just go lead a bunch of easy pitches, over and over.

Terrible Climberwrote:
Obviously, I'd do it high

Nice...

Gregory Hwrote: Nice...

w a i t   t h a t ' s  i l l e g a l

First of all you'll probably be way ahead of everyone in the class. Most people there will probably have no idea what they are doing.

Yeah I wouldn't advise practicing falling.

I would mock lead, placing gear, extending as needed with slings, and clipping a rope (that just hangs to the ground). You partner should be watching you lead. They should alert you if your pieces are in the right places to prevent ground falls, ledge falls, swinging falls (also check for swinging falls for the second). Look for Z clipping. Look for getting the rope behind your leg which could cause an upside down fall.

After you finish the pitch they should follow and examine each placement to see how solid it is. And evaluate again where you made your placements and what would happen if you fell at any point along the route (would it prevent a ground fall, etc.). Evaluate did you use a crappy location when an easier location for a solid piece was 3 feet farther up.

Then I would mock aid lead. You will see what pieces hold and what don't. And you'll get a lot of practice because you have way more placements in aid climbing vs. free. You can aid with few slings girth hitched together to make an aider, and use a few quickdraws for a daisy chain.

Rob Jarviswrote: Aiding on top rope is a good option too.  Stay on top rope the entire time but place gear, pull on it, clip a sling into it and stand/bounce test it.  Watch out for pieces popping and scaring your money maker

+1  And see what you can get away with:  a cam open near the end of it's range; a nut hanging on by only a top corner; etc.. 

If you do mock lead in a way that you can take 'lead' fall on placements, just be certain that both ropes can not take the load together.  Else, it'll be like falling on a static rope - ouch!   ... and face away from the top piece as you fall.  ... and remember these will be mere low-fall-factor falls.

I have been going solo and doing the following:
1. Bowline with a static rope tied around a (big) tree backed up with a double fisherman's
2. Lower with GriGri backed up with catastrophe knot partway down the climb
3. Place pieces and then clip a sling and tug, or weight, or step in - no "falls" as you don't want to be caught by the static rope if the piece fails ("ouch!"), and being careful that if the piece pulls it could whack you, or it could drop (if it is not clipped to your harness) 

Josh Rappoportwrote: I have been going solo and doing the following:
1. Bowline with a static rope tied around a (big) tree backed up with a double fisherman's
2. Lower with GriGri backed up with catastrophe knot partway down the climb
3. Place pieces and then clip a sling and tug, or weight, or step in - no "falls" as you don't want to be caught by the static rope if the piece fails ("ouch!"), and being careful that if the piece pulls it could whack you, or it could drop (if it is not clipped to your harness) 

If you're on top rope, static ropes are fine to fall on. I've never seen a static line that didnt have some stretch. Just dont let much slack build up and you'll be fine. I agree, this method of "down aiding" is a great way to teach yourself how to place gear without a mentor.

When I've had people that wanted to start leading trad, I've recommended that after they've removed a piece while they are following that they try placing it again. If nothing else, it may help them visualize what the leader thought was the best choice for this situation.

Terrible Climberwrote: Hi all,
as crags start to open, I wanted to practice mock-leading ahead of a trad leading class I'm going to take soon, so that we don't have to waste too much time learning gear placements during the class. So here's my thought- I climb up normally on top-rope belay, except also I'm placing gear and clipping a second rope as a go up-- but the second rope is not being belayed by anyone. Then, when I want to practice 'falling,' my belayer gives a bunch of slack on TR, goes hands free (w/ gri/gri and a knot tied below), then picks up second rope and puts it on belay. I climb a foot or so higher than the last piece, then fall and let my belayer catch on lead. I was thinking that my belayer could basket hitch a sling to their harness so it declutter's his belay loop, and he can put the second device arresting the lead fall on the sling. If the piece pulls out during the 'fall' (knowing me, it will), the TR catches me. Does this sound safe? Obviously, I'd do it high on the climb, helmets, etc. etc.
Thanks!

TC,  This is actually the most important part of the class. It's the first 3 rules of trad. If you can't place and recognize solid bomber pro everything else is moot. That's what you want from an instructor. All that crap about "bounce testing to see what holds" is bollocks. If you're bounce testing on aid, all you'll realize is what can hold 2kn. Aid is useful to learn how a cam or nut moves inside a crack but that's about it.

1st, 2nd & 3rd rule: Learn to place and recognize solid gear. What is and isn't multidirectional and how to achieve it if needed.
4th rule is building bulletproof anchors. Which you can't do if your gear is crap and you don't know it.
After that you'll be ready to learn the rest.

There are too many leaders out there thinking they know about solid placements. They then post a pic of an umbrellaed cam and bitch about manufacturer defects. Don't be that guy.

rocknice2wrote:

TC,  This is actually the most important part of the class. It's the first 3 rules of trad. If you can't place and recognize solid bomber pro everything else is moot. That's what you want from an instructor. All that crap about "bounce testing to see what holds" is bollocks. If you're bounce testing on aid, all you'll realize is what can hold 2kn. Aid is useful to learn how a cam or nut moves inside a crack but that's about it.

1st, 2nd & 3rd rule: Learn to place and recognize solid gear. What is and isn't multidirectional and how to achieve it if needed.
4th rule is building bulletproof anchors. Which you can't do if your gear is crap and you don't know it.
After that you'll be ready to learn the rest.

There are too many leaders out there thinking they know about solid placements. They then post a pic of an umbrellaed cam and bitch about manufacturer defects. Don't be that guy.

Agreed placing solid pro is #1. You should get to the point you know a solid placement just by looking at it. However it takes experience to know that. One of the most useful things about aid leading is it helps teach you when placements you initially thing are good are actually bad and gives you a lot of experience placing pro. For example you think a piece is good and go to weight a piece and it pops out because it was placed against a flake in the crack that moved. Or you think a nut placement is good but when you weight it it moves lower and out of the constriction and pops out. Aid also helps teach you what the direction of pull will be on the piece. Many beginners place their pieces for too much of an outward pull (away from the rock). You see that the pull is mostly downwards and orient your placements for that pull. You'll see how the biner will be weighted, e.g. if it's over an edge and could break the biner, you may want to adjust your placement so the biner hangs free. You also get experience of how far in to place a cam. Many beginners place their pieces too far in and they're hard to clean and inspect. Aid will help you realize you don't need to place it deep, just in a good spot. Just one or two mock aid leads will help a lot IMO.

The other high priority thing (along with solid anchors) is where to place your pieces. Most trad injuries / deaths are from leader falls. You want to build a whole system designed to safely catch you if you fall at any point. This often means more pieces closer together close to the ground or above ledges. Pieces to protect traverses. Etc.

Gloweringwrote:

Agreed placing solid pro is #1. You should get to the point you know a solid placement just by looking at it. However it takes experience to know that. One of the most useful things about aid leading is it helps teach you when placements you initially thing are good are actually bad and gives you a lot of experience placing pro. For example you think a piece is good and go to weight a piece and it pops out because it was placed against a flake in the crack that moved. Or you think a nut placement is good but when you weight it it moves lower and out of the constriction and pops out. Aid also helps teach you what the direction of pull will be on the piece. Many beginners place their pieces for too much of an outward pull (away from the rock). You see that the pull is mostly downwards and orient your placements for that pull. You'll see how the biner will be weighted, e.g. if it's over an edge and could break the biner, you may want to adjust your placement so the biner hangs free. You also get experience of how far in to place a cam. Many beginners place their pieces too far in and they're hard to clean and inspect. Aid will help you realize you don't need to place it deep, just in a good spot. Just one or two mock aid leads will help a lot IMO.

The other high priority thing (along with solid anchors) is where to place your pieces. Most trad injuries / deaths are from leader falls. You want to build a whole system designed to safely catch you if you fall at any point. This often means more pieces closer together close to the ground or above ledges. Pieces to protect traverses. Etc.

Definitely agree that understanding what will happen to a carabiner when a piece is weighted is a great reason to do this.  Another is how a piece moves with upward pull

John Reevewrote: FWIW, you can place gear on the ground... mostly, if it looks sketchy it is sketchy.  Yard on it, see what sticks, see what is a pain in the ass to remove from the rock.  You don't necessarially need to be on a climb to get value out of that process.

Learning how to place gear on the ground is fine, but when you yard on it, son't pull out, pull down.  Trad gear has to be placed so it protects against the forces generated during a fall.  These are generally downward forces.  You can get side forces and even upward forces (on the bottom pieces if the belayer is too far away from the wall, so learning how to protect against these other forces is important, but if you are testing your gear by yanking out at ground level, you are not going to learn good placements.

I don't think practice falls is such a bad idea. It's one thing to say you trust your gear, it's another to actually go for it and be willing to take a whip on it. If you're willing to fall in safe scenarios (i.e. good gear, no ledges) you'll progress much faster as a climber. The caveat is that you have to be able to judge when it is a safe time to fall. All this should come a bit later IMO, because while you're developing your placement skills you shouldn't be pushing your climbing grade until you have at least 20+ (very rough number) gear leads under your belt.

Make it simple and realistic.  
Go on ahead and use a TR- but only to keep ya off the deck!    Do this-   After ya have gone up about 20 feet - tie off that TR and have your belayer stop taking up slack. Keep going on the lead line and take some body length falls (you won’t die, cause the TR will save you) Keep taking longer and longer falls till you prove to yourself that gear holds.

Matt Himmelsteinwrote:

Learning how to place gear on the ground is fine, but when you yard on it, son't pull out, pull down.  Trad gear has to be placed so it protects against the forces generated during a fall.  These are generally downward forces.  You can get side forces and even upward forces (on the bottom pieces if the belayer is too far away from the wall, so learning how to protect against these other forces is important, but if you are testing your gear by yanking out at ground level, you are not going to learn good placements.

Fair enough, and generally good points.  I guess I'm more or less in agreement with the "looks good, is good" camp on a lot of things, so yarding on stuff doesn't gain much if anything.

To distill, this was/is my process:

- follow a lot and look at what other folks do, examine as many placements as possible that other people place
- practice placing on the ground (I did this a bit, but there's only so much I learned)
- do some solo clean aid climbing... that I found to be very helpful in fiuring out placements and I've been bonked in the head with my black totem
- climb a lot of easy stuff where I know I am not going to fall... because rope drag, figuring stuff out on the fly, directional pieces, protecgting the second on a travers, are all more difficult to learn and only things you notice once you're in the process of leading
- have the people I am climbing with critique as much of my placements as possible

At this point I'm feeling very comfortable leading 5.9 trad in the areas where I regularly climb... I am trying to feel better about falling on lead, so I'm in a mode of doing a lot of sport climbing... I only climb in the mid-10s mostly, so I'm just starting to get into a range where a fall is possibly going to be somewhat clean.  But that's a whole different part of how to climb.
-

Guy Keeseewrote: Make it simple and realistic.  
Go on ahead and use a TR- but only to keep ya off the deck!    Do this-   After ya have gone up about 20 feet - tie off that TR and have your belayer stop taking up slack. Keep going on the lead line and take some body length falls (you won’t die, cause the TR will save you) Keep taking longer and longer falls till you prove to yourself that gear holds.

This is a really interesting idea. When you say "Tie Off", do you mean having your belayer tie an overhand on a bight on the brake strand? So do you need a second belayer on the lead line belaying as they normally would? I'm not the OP but I'm interested in basically the same thing.