Clipping into the thumb loop?

George Bracksieck wrote:

Hey Steve:  It’s not back-clipped. The rope is coming from below and next to the rock, then going up through the biner and out to the leader’s harness — as it should. I agree that first attaching the biner to the sling would be better. 

George, take out a cam, carabiner, and rope and orient them like the diagram and you will see the rope is incorrectly clipped. 

Per diagram:

Correctly clipped thumb loop:

I'm a bit surprised that no one has called out OP's crazy hypothetical - they can't reach the sling but they can reach the thumb loop. Say what?

The only time I could possibly see this being a good idea is if you’re doing a horizontal placement and it’s in just the right spot where a carabiner clipped to the sling would be on the lip whereas the thumb loop would clear it...but then I’d rather just readjust the placement unless it’s a shallow pocket that can’t go any deeper.

Gunkiemike wrote:

I'm a bit surprised that no one has called out OP's crazy hypothetical - they can't reach the sling but they can reach the thumb loop. Say what?

He didn't say couldn't, he said there are times where clipping the thumb loop is much easier than clipping the sling, which is reality and not a crazy hypothetical. 

HUGE Tradifan wrote:

Think about why we don't backclip. The diagram is NOT backclipped it's just twisted.

You are correct. I should have just said "incorrectly clipped".

Still, interesting that BD would show it this way, which was my original, and only point.

New to trad climbing but I was taught from a guide during my training that in order to protect the zipper (from ground up) it is a good practice to short clip the 1st piece by clipping directly in the thumb loop with a single biner as it keeps the rope closer to the rock face. 

Would anyone care to comment on this (aside from the usual YGD)? 

Russ B wrote:

He didn't say couldn't, he said there are times where clipping the thumb loop is much easier than clipping the sling, which is reality and not a crazy hypothetical. 

You're right, he said it's"really difficult" due to the cam being placed deep in a crack. I stand by my assessment of this as 95% nonsense.

Steve Levin wrote:

George, take out a cam, carabiner, and rope and orient them like the diagram and you will see the rope is incorrectly clipped. 

Per diagram:

Correctly clipped thumb loop:

I agree that it was incorrectly clipped.  Btw your new Eldo guidebook looks great!

Gunkiemike wrote:

You're right, he said it's"really difficult" due to the cam being placed deep in a crack. I stand by my assessment of this as 95% nonsense.

Well, I stand by my assessment that you don't really know what you're talking about. 

lol yeah that describes Mike...total gumby.

Pierre Proulx wrote:

New to trad climbing but I was taught from a guide during my training that in order to protect the zipper (from ground up) it is a good practice to short clip the 1st piece by clipping directly in the thumb loop with a single biner as it keeps the rope closer to the rock face. 

Would anyone care to comment on this (aside from the usual YGD)? 

This doesn’t make sense to me.  If anything I would be more likely to extend this piece (assuming it’s not too low where doing so would render it useless) as I’d be concerned about it lifting out.

I know he's an old timer, who probably started climbing before thumbloops were really a thing, just as I did. 

That doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of placements on many different kinds of rock where getting a biner into the thumb loop on a camalot is significantly easier than clipping the sling. 

HUGE Tradifan wrote:

That is the exact opposite of what you want to do to avoid a reverse zipper. You want to lessen the angle from the belayor to the first piece to reduce upward rotation of the gear, ergo extend your first piece, and dump that "guide".

I just love receiving contradictory information :S

I guess I’ll just make sure that the first piece is a solid multidirectional piece, that the other pieces are properly extended and that my belayer is standing close to the cliff and underneath said first piece to minimize the risks. 

Yes, all of those are much better ways of avoiding zippering.

Russ B wrote:

I know he's an old timer, who probably started climbing before thumbloops were really a thing, just as I did. 

That doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of placements on many different kinds of rock where getting a biner into the thumb loop on a camalot is significantly easier than clipping the sling. 

Such as?

HUGE Tradifan wrote:

That is the exact opposite of what you want to do to avoid a reverse zipper. You want to lessen the angle from the belayor to the first piece to reduce upward rotation of the gear, ergo extend your first piece, and dump that "guide".

Actually the answer to Pierre's question is a bit more nuanced than just "extend your first piece" as this indeed could lead to zippering of gear.  Adding the long sling to the first piece will in fact reduce the likelihood of the first piece rotating in a weird direction and coming out but if the sling is too long the next couple pieces, if they are stoppers clipped with regular length draws, have an increased likelihood of coming out even if the first piece stays in.   I've seen this exact thing happen more than once at the crag.   Generally just make sure the first piece is a solid multi-directional piece that won't walk or rotate into a weird/poor location and just clip it like normal with or without a draw.  

What are they trying to illustrate in the first picture in row two, and the third picture in row three?

Eric Roe wrote:

What are they trying to illustrate in the first picture in row two, and the third picture in row three?

Both are showing that if you clip to the inner loop of the webbing, it's dangerous. 

Mikey Schaefer wrote:

Actually the answer to Pierre's question is a bit more nuanced than just "extend your first piece" as this indeed could lead to zippering of gear.  Adding the long sling to the first piece will in fact reduce the likelihood of the first piece rotating in a weird direction and coming out but if the sling is too long the next couple pieces, if they are stoppers clipped with regular length draws, have an increased likelihood of coming out even if the first piece stays in.   I've seen this exact thing happen more than once at the crag.   Generally just make sure the first piece is a solid multi-directional piece that won't walk or rotate into a weird/poor location and just clip it like normal with or without a draw.  

Thanks Mikey, I guess I should have mention that short clipping was demonstrated as away to prevent non-extended unidirectional pieces above the 1st piece from poping. 

I'm sure that if you happened to clip the biner to the thumb loop, everything's going to be fine, -- even if you fall.   Some of this shit is pretty damn hypothetical.   

I was wondering about this the other day and came across this thread. I saw someone posted BD's diagram and stance and wondered about Wild Country's. Given that the diameter of their slings is not much different than a carabiner, I thought they may not say there is an issue in clipping the thumb loop. This is what they had to say when I emailed them:

"It is highly recommended to not clip a quickdraw or alpine draw to anywhere except for the webbing of any camming device such as the Friend or Zero Friend. This will weaken the strength rating of the device and is not the intended use of the cam. It can also cause damage to the thumb loop sheath and cable as well as kink the cable.

While it may be convenient at times to clip the thumb loop, quickdraws and alpine draws should always be clipped to the webbing of the draw instead."

For what it's worth, there it is. That's all I got and figured I'd pass it along.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds4R2muUpmo

““It’s not dangerous. It’s dumb.”

I’ve clipped to thumb loop when aid climbing, but it only takes 2kN to deform the loop and destroy ur cam. Thats about the force of a nice whip.