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Quad anchor using webbing

Original Post
Jared Dowdle · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2019 · Points: 0

I am still quite new in the climbing world and have been trying to figure out the best way to set up a top rope anchor.  I've read and heard great things about webbing and the same for quad anchors but I can't find anything for making a quad with webbing.  If I were to tie a loop of webbing with a water knot and the tying barrel knots to back up the tails, would a quad anchor be acceptable?

Edit: Would a barrel knot work or would a double overhand around the main loop with the tails be better? Forgive me if these aren’t the right names, basically half a double fisherman’s with the tail

Connor Dobson · · Louisville, CO · Joined Dec 2017 · Points: 269

Incoming quad thread

John Reeve · · Durango, formely from TX · Joined Nov 2018 · Points: 15

I don't think that the water knot requires backups.  You just need to inspect the knot to make sure that there are appropriate tails whenever you use it.  Other than that, it would work as a quad.

John Reeve · · Durango, formely from TX · Joined Nov 2018 · Points: 15
Incoming quad thread
Doesn't have to be.
Tree Soloist · · Mammoth Lakes / Joshua Tree · Joined May 2018 · Points: 15

Not here to weigh in on quads vs. others. John Long advises caution with water knots in his book, Climbing Anchors:

"Also known as the water knot, the ring bend is used to tie sections of webbing into slings. Check the ring bend every time you use the sling to make sure the tails are at least 3 inches long and the knot is cinched tight. The water knot has a penchant for creeping and untying itself if not properly tightened."

"Richard and the late, great Nick Escrow were high on El Capitan when, moored at a hanging belay, Nick handed Richard a 1 -inch nylon runner containing most all of their rack. To their horror, the knot on the sling came untied, and the entire rack dropped into the void."

So just like John Reeve said. I like double fisherman's knots better, personally.

Jared Dowdle · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2019 · Points: 0
Skye Swoboda-Colberg wrote: Double fisherman's knot is the way to go.

Even though the webbing is flat? 

Buck Rogers · · West Point, NY · Joined Nov 2018 · Points: 240

Just get 6 meters of Sterling 7 mm cordelette if you want to work with quad anchors.  You can even get pre-sewn ones if you do not want to fuss with the double fishermans.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,697
Jared Dowdle wrote:

Even though the webbing is flat? 

Yup, even though it's flat.

Steven Lee · · El Segundo, CA · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 385

Quad made out of webbing works fine and is perfectly safe. See above for knot comments.

B G · · New England · Joined May 2018 · Points: 41

I have a 240cm black diamond nylon runner that I commonly use for building a quad. If you decide you don't want to tie knots in your webbing, you could always get a runner (downside is price).

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276
B G wrote: I have a 240cm black diamond nylon runner that I commonly use for building a quad. If you decide you don't want to tie knots in your webbing, you could always get a runner (downside is price).

This is the answer. Don't use bulk webbing (even though you can) - buy a 240 cm Dynex/Dyneema runner for making a quad.

Buck Rio · · MN · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 16

If you plan on doing a lot of top roping, a length of static line simply cannot be beat. Get 100ft of line and you can still reach back to trees and whatnot. It will last forever, practically.

For edge protection, get 10 feet of 1" tubular nylon and thread the rope through the nylon. That way the nylon will take the abuse, not the static rope.

Tie an overhand on a bight on the static line to hang over the edge with your master point for the climbing rope to run through(two biners), the two running ends will be tied off to your anchor, which may be made up of multiple pieces (trees, nuts, cams, hexes, slung boulders, bolts, pins, ice screws etc..)

I used to use a sh*t-ton of webbing to do this, but a static line is so much cleaner.  EDIT: I usually forgo the TWO overhands in the master point, unless I am going to have a bunch of people climbing on it and the edge is sharpish, but technically that means no redundancy....
.

Christopher Chu · · CA and NV · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 40

Edit: deleted as to not spread irrelevant info

wivanoff · · Northeast, USA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 719
Chris Cragsocks wrote: https://youtu.be/Vrgadjo9niY

Anchor testing using dyneema. YGD.

OP is top roping. Link is irrelevant with that much dynamic rope in the system and only spreads FUD. OP: Your webbing quad is fine - even though it's overkill for top roping.

Christopher Chu · · CA and NV · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 40
wivanoff wrote:

OP is top roping. Link is irrelevant with that much dynamic rope in the system and only spreads FUD. OP: Your webbing quad is fine - even though it's overkill for top roping.

Ah. I missed the TR part. My mistake.


However, I have experienced significant wear on a dyneema equalette with waterknots for an extended TR anchor. If the anchor moves back and forth and the knot rubs, it could be catastrophic. This happened after one session.
Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,697
Chris Cragsocks wrote:

Ah. I missed the TR part. My mistake.


However, I have experienced significant wear on a dyneema equalette with waterknots for an extended TR anchor. If the anchor moves back and forth and the knot rubs, it could be catastrophic. This happened after one session.

A water knot is used to join webbing ends e.g. to make a loop from bulk webbing off the spool. PLEASE tell me you didn't use a (prone to slippage) water knot in (known to be slippery) Dyneema-containing webbing to fashion a sling or anchor.

Christopher Chu · · CA and NV · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 40
Gunkiemike wrote:

A water knot is used to join webbing ends e.g. to make a loop from bulk webbing off the spool. PLEASE tell me you didn't use a (prone to slippage) water knot in (known to be slippery) Dyneema-containing webbing to fashion a sling or anchor.

perhaps i'm using the wrong term.  it was a closed loop sling with a dressed overhand for each limiter knot on the equalette.  basically, its an overhand on a bight.  its the same knot as a water knot, but perhaps water knot is used only as a term to join two webbing ends together.

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,516
Connor Dobson wrote: Incoming quad thread

Deploy countermeasures to intercept.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,697
Chris Cragsocks wrote:

perhaps i'm using the wrong term.  it was a closed loop sling with a dressed overhand for each limiter knot on the equalette.  basically, its an overhand on a bight.  its the same knot as a water knot, but perhaps water knot is used only as a term to join two webbing ends together.

AFAIK that is correct. The water knot and the OH on a bight are topologically similar but are quite different in the way they are loaded.

curt86iroc · · Lakewood, CO · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 274
Tree Soloist wrote: Not here to weigh in on quads vs. others. John Long advises caution with water knots in his book, Climbing Anchors:

"Also known as the water knot, the ring bend is used to tie sections of webbing into slings. Check the ring bend every time you use the sling to make sure the tails are at least 3 inches long and the knot is cinched tight. The water knot has a penchant for creeping and untying itself if not properly tightened."

"Richard and the late, great Nick Escrow were high on El Capitan when, moored at a hanging belay, Nick handed Richard a 1 -inch nylon runner containing most all of their rack. To their horror, the knot on the sling came untied, and the entire rack dropped into the void."

So just like John Reeve said. I like double fisherman's knots better, personally.

water knots in webbing are fine. they are similar to bowlines in the sense that they will creep and can loosen under cyclic loading (well documented), but as long as you check your knots (which you should) everything is gravy.

edit: an easy way to manage this is to never leave a water knot tied in your webbing. always tie it at point of use.
Christopher Chu · · CA and NV · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 40
Gunkiemike wrote:

AFAIK that is correct. The water knot and the OH on a bight are topologically similar but are quite different in the way they are loaded.

Now that you mention it, you're right.  The water knot loads on one strand on each side of the knot (since there is a loose end) while the overhand loads both strands.  I learn something new everyday.  

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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