Most Time Efficient Way To Build Endurance

Mark E Dixon wrote:

This is really interesting. 

Do you recall what the results were for max hangs?

I can look up what I got for a p value and effect size if that is what your asking. 

 So when I looked at bouldering grades, only max weight hangs protocol was significant (repeaters protocol was close to being significant). And, as mentioned before,  repeaters were only significant when looking at roped climbing grades. I believe the other options were minimum edge protocol, 'other protocol', and one arm hang protocol; all of these were insignificant when I looked at both roped grades, and bouldering grades.

Maybe a couple of additional notes, I also looked at climbing grips trained when hangboarding. And for both bouldering and roped climbing the most significant was the pinch grip ?! Which seems contrary to what I would have expected. I'm pretty sure I've seen published research saying the performance on the half crimp grip most closely correlates with climbing performance.
For roped climbing, there were no more grips that came out as statistically significant. Which is something that I guess could be interpreted as it's important to hangboard, but grips chosen don't make much difference, or maybe it means only training the pinch grip when hangboarding is necessary?
Another surprise, was a grip that I think is popular, the closed crimp, came out as what I would call strongly statistically insignificant.

mike h wrote:

Sounds interesting. Maybe I misunderstand, but are you saying the results are based on the assumption that climbing longer should mean climbing harder? If that were true, teenagers would not climb 5.14, and competition winners would all be senior citizens.

Yep, you understood correctly. When I look at climbing performance it appears to increase  the more people climb. People that listed their climbing experience as more than 15 years, however, did not follow the pattern, so I excluded those people from the analysis.  Age was unfortunately not a part of the survey, and I would have loved to have looked at rate of improvement as a function of age.

Nick Drake wrote: Steve there are some real pitfalls to looking at that survey from climbharder and trying to extrapolate the most effective approach to training for sport climbing. The community there is heavily boulder oriented (and was even more so at that time) and many have very low sport grades relative to route grades they have done. It also tends to self select people looking for physiological gains to increase their climbing grade, ie it's a group that's disproportionately strong relative to the climbing community as a whole.

On the reddit note, I'll refer back to a lattice AMA for someone with far more knowledge and experience to comment on aerobic capacity work:

What are the most common weaknesses you see in intermediate climbers?
TomRandallUK2 points·2 years agoHi, I think it depends on what you definite as "intermediate"! But in my opinion it would be for your typical 5.11-5.12 climber an order of - 1. Localised aerobic performance of the forearm, 2. Ability to relax/have high economy of movement 3. Address basic strength and conditioning of the shoulder girdle to set up for later performance if reaching 5.13 and beyond.

nurkdurk1 point·2 years agoSo for the average intermediate climber would you suggest a focus on aerocap mileage?
TomRandallUK1 point·2 years agoYes this would be hugely beneficial in 90+% of cases. Keep the intensity low and the volume high! Do keep this work at the END of sessions though.... don't let it compromise your high intensity work like bouldering, fingerboard etc.
Full thread here with far more tidbits

Lena has a very accurate post above regarding the usual problems and root causes for someone in that grade on routes. These issues are usually still present at higher grades as well, just to a lesser degree. The best way to address them is with a focus more on technique than "protocols" and exact times, but the programming of ARC type sessions forces one to learn how to relax their grip and drive more through their feet. Aerocap type work is highly beneficial to a novice to intermediate climber.
I personally didn't find the greatest results from the ultra long rep ARC type sessions and use medium intervals more like Mark noted above. Mine will be 8-12 minute reps of climbing linked boulders with 4-6 minutes between sets and 4-7 sets total. As long as your sets are 5 minutes or longer this seems to be enough to really work localized aerobic capacity and force efficiency of movement. 

Thanks for such a well thought out response. Yes. I guess I agree in theory. There are a bunch of really good reasons why some or most of my analysis is meaningless (or all), but at the same time I can't help but think things with large effect sizes are important.

I'll take a closer look at comments from the Lattice guys.

I guess I might as well try to discredit my results and alienate everyone reading:
I'm not a coach or a good climber, and possibly not that good at analyzing data. Most of my results showed forms of training that are popular with good climbers frequently were statistically insignificant. Some of these are yoga, stretching, core training, antagonist training, strength training pushing, strength training pulling, campus boarding more than once a week, full crimp training, slack lining, middle two, etc. etc. Just what shape all of the forms of training take could vary widely between individuals. I don't have access to the climber's ages, I'm basically assuming everyone started at the same level, the survey was heavily biased  in people climbing mid-range grades so maybe doesn't apply to a broad range of grades, it's not a random sample...

Edit: it does appear that going climbing might be a good way to improve. I'm going to look into this more.

Seth Bleazard wrote:

Sorry. I guess it was a bit non-specific. What I am saying is that I would like to improve my overall ability to hang on for longer (and not being exhausted) while sport climbing. Maybe I should be asking for advice on transitioning from bouldering to sport climbing. 

Thank you guys for all the great answers!

Seth are you finding that you are pumping out while sport climbing, or are you finding that you are "powered down" between moves on a route? In the short term (Fall to Spring seasons) there are specific exercises that you can do that produce results in 2-4 weeks, but the results also fade without constant stimulus or once you reach your peak for the season. In the long term (greater than one year), the best way to manage endurance is to get stronger so that moves that once felt demanding are less demanding.

Managing the pump is partly mental but also about the body responding to the demands of developing and managing pumped forearms. Route intervals where you spent a set amount of time on the wall and the same amount of time off the wall can help to build your body's capacity to long bouts on the wall. It's important to start out low (5 minutes) for a week before ramping up the time spend on the wall.

If you're feeling powered down then bouldering intervals will be a godsend. The goal is to develop your body's capacity to continue executing powerful movement. Bouldering intervals work similar to a 4x4 but are shorter duration. So a double interval would be finding two boulders with powerful movement. You do one boulder twice then rest for 3 minutes before doing the second boulder twice. Now do that process a second time. You can ramp this up to a triple interval after becoming proficient at double intervals. I like these better than a 4x4: 1) There is less wandering from boulder to boulder; 2) It's easier to execute during crowded times at the gym; 3) I can focus on trying hard when tired.

for roped climbing:

1. ARC was Strongly statistically insignificant. People that list ARC, progress as the same rate as people that don't.

huh? the definition of an oxymoron right?

@Nick- just curious how intense your intervals are? Mine are hard- I usually finish the fourth repeat, but afterwards it takes a while before my souls reenters my body!

FWIW, I corresponded with Mike Anderson once.
If I understood him correctly he strongly advocates ARC and does it a fairly high intensity. Breathing somewhat hard but still only a mild-moderate pump. 

And wrt intervals, I think maintaining a consistent rest interval is key. 

Finally, I think the biggest shortcoming with the survey methodology is that It is looking at a population. 
The average route climber may not benefit from max hangs, for example, but I might if pure finger strength happens to be a weakness of mine. 
Nevertheless, quite interesting. 

That was pretty elaborate for a troll.

Mark E Dixon wrote: @Nick- just curious how intense your intervals are? Mine are hard- I usually finish the fourth repeat, but afterwards it takes a while before my souls reenters my body!

FWIW, I corresponded with Mike Anderson once.
If I understood him correctly he strongly advocates ARC and does it a fairly high intensity. Breathing somewhat hard but still only a mild-moderate pump. 

Compared to what I see most people who say they "ARC" doing mine are pretty hard, compared to waiting for my soul to reenter my body I'm quite soft :D

Usually holding about a 2 out of 5 on the pump scale, but swinging up to 3 and back to 1 if I'm working on route recovery. Even if the holds aren't terrible small I'm usually doing larger moves than if I were on the gyms 10+ routes; so I'm sweating heavily during the sets, but that's from the nature of linking boulders more than anything else. Actually that has been the limiter to do more than 12 minutes on, I am sweating too much to keep chalk on my hands!