How to push yourself on an onsight

I noticed a trend in my trad climbing - when I’m climbing something onsight that’s hard for me and I get to the crux or into a situation where I made a move and feel like I’m gonna fall, I’ll opt to place a piece to hang on instead of just charging it. When he fall is above good gear and is safe, I would much rather be able to just go for it because a lot of the time the move is easily within my ability and it’s just my mind is holding me back. Not to mention that placing that mid crux piece can be very physically taxing.

I don’t have this issue sport climbing or leading in the gym. Am I not fully trusting my gear? I was doing the same thing on 5.8 and 5.9 cruxes last year, and I’m not sure what I did to fix it but I can cruise those routes no problem now. But when the going gets tough at 10-/10 now, I’m having the same problem. Also, strangely, I don’t seem to have this problem if I’m leading the cracks at Mt Woodson, where the boulders are less than 30ft usually

Have you fallen on gear before?

Mounir F wrote: I would much rather be able to just go for it because a lot of the time the move is easily within my ability and it’s just my mind is holding me back.

this is the crux of trad climbing...and why most people climb below their onsite sport grade.  it's all a mental game...and honestly it gets worse when you DO go for it, fall, and that good placement (or so you thought) pulls...really messes with you...

Mounir F wrote: I noticed a trend in my trad climbing - when I’m climbing something onsight that’s hard for me and I get to the crux or into a situation where I made a move and feel like I’m gonna fall, I’ll opt to place a piece to hang on instead of just charging it. When he fall is above good gear and is safe, I would much rather be able to just go for it because a lot of the time the move is easily within my ability and it’s just my mind is holding me back. Not to mention that placing that mid crux piece can be very physically taxing.

I don’t have this issue sport climbing or leading in the gym. Am I not fully trusting my gear? I was doing the same thing on 5.8 and 5.9 cruxes last year, and I’m not sure what I did to fix it but I can cruise those routes no problem now. But when the going gets tough at 10-/10 now, I’m having the same problem. Also, strangely, I don’t seem to have this problem if I’m leading the cracks at Mt Woodson, where the boulders are less than 30ft usually

You're doing the right thing by hanging, no fall is inherently safe and "charging" it is asking to get fucked up.

On onsite climbing you don't know what's coming, so you don't know if the next move is easy or not. It sounds like you're route reading ability is the problem, not your "head". This ability will come with experience.

I would highly recommend picking up the book "The Rock Warrior's Way" by Arno Ilnger. I had this problem, and now I usually do not. There are still off days(maybe 3 times this season) when I forget what I've learned, and I get entirely wrapped up in perceived fear. The rest of the time, I finish the climb or take the whip(assuming the gear placement looks good and there are no obstacles to land on). It's all about managing your thoughts, your level of fear, and learning from your experiences. Just my personal experience: I started climbing in the summer of 2017, led my first trad route that season, onsighted my first 10a the next season, and have ticked a many more trad 5.10s this summer(and also 5.11s and a 5.12a on bolts)(even with 10 weeks off due to a finger tendon injury). I've taken dozens of falls on gear and never been injured because of a fall or had a piece pull. My lead head is quite strong, and that's all because of that book. Good luck!

I think the key to hard onsight trad climbing is all in the route reading. Break the route down into good rests and stances. Pull up to a good stance and get solid gear in, evaluate if it’s a safe fall, then look for the next good rest or stance after the crux. Once you’ve determined it’s a safe fall and solid gear, you can blast through the crux to the next stance. 

Interesting, thanks for the tips guys 

I have never had a piece blow so haven't had a fall that messed with my head yet, but have taken some bad falls on thin gear. Many will probably disagree with my opinion below but whatever climbers are soft in 2019, including me.

When I get scared there are two options that usually follow depending on the route, for a run out I usually find a wierd headspace where nothing is going on in my head and I am making the moves without thinking, thus consequence. However, I am not pushing the grade 15-20 feet out from a bolt or gear.

Other times on routes where the gear is thin or I am pumped I usually just call myself a bitch, pussy, soft, or whatever the term of the day is and go for it. Either you make it or don't, but that's what the gear is for. If it's thin gear put an extra piece in and forget about how bad or thin it is.

Now all of that said, I have "taken" on a piece before. All depends on the day and how bad you want it :)

Find challenging, well-protected routes with good falls, go for it. You’ll either summit or plummet.

When in doubt, run it out.  Or don't.

I am getting way more comfortable running out easier sections of climbs, just like you mention about working through the crux on 5.8/9 routes where you wouldn't do it a year ago.  You are probably a stronger climber, and you are definitely a more experienced leader, so you are far more confident in your ability to climb through a crux on an easier climb.  I hazard that when you were having issues on the 5.8/9 routes, you were running out 5.6/7 routes.  Next year, you may be hangdogging on 10d's while cruising through the sections of 10a's that are giving you pause today.  It is just natural.  Falls all have inherent risks.  We rarely hurt ourselves during a climb, we hurt ourselves because of a fall, even on well placed gear.  Not wanting to fall is natural.

Plugging and taking vs going for it and ... ?

Lots of "what ifs" apply to trad more so than sport and it is healthy to want to live/not get hurt to climb another day.
Do you have dependents? Life insurance? A job that requires motor skills? Health insurance? How far from the TH/cell service? Etc, etc.

Then you weigh priories - the potential of getting that onsight vs the consequences of a bad fall.
Ironically I'm more comfortable on runout slab/knobs than whipping on gear - its all personal and relates to your experience and mindset.

Push yourself as much as you want to in climbing. Remember that its supposed to be fun. Sometimes getting out of your comfort zone is fun. Make sure you're still doing it for yourself and not a partner/to get laid/because you watched a rad trad vid/etc. 

Tradiban wrote:

You're doing the right thing by hanging, no fall is inherently safe and "charging" it is asking to get fucked up.

Amen, dude. After hearing about a few guys cratering in Eldo over the years and the details, you come to realize that onsight, redpoint, whatever doesn't mean much.

Tim Stich wrote:

Amen, dude. After hearing about a few guys cratering in Eldo over the years and the details, you come to realize that onsight, redpoint, whatever doesn't mean much.

Live to climb another day...

Each climber is different and you’re climbing above my grade but most of my problems come down to body position footowork and route reading.  I climb with an old dog , 20 year dirtbag and he is just never in a bad position even when the move is hard for him.  My head gets bad when my feet and or body is out of position .

Falling on trad gear IMO is never optimal. Sure there are a lot of people doing it, doesn't mean it is a good idea.

I also am not a strong climber...I place gear when convenient and obvious, or when absolutely needed. Otherwise I am trying to get to the next stance to put more gear in, which may be further away than I would like. So you get used to running it out a little when you can see where the next piece will go.  I also am not afraid to double up on gear if the next moves are an obvious crux: say pulling a roof, or a thin traverse or mantle move.

One example is pro-ing up the Bastille crack before stepping off the big flake on P1.  The crack is polished, best to put in a couple of good pieces rather than have one blow and be on the ground.

The real mind fucks are trad routes that are either bolted or mixed. If they were lead bolted, they can be a long ways apart. Think JTree, Figures on a Landscape.

P1) An incredible pitch!! Face climb up and right 30' to the first bolt (easy, but don't screw it up). From the bolt climb up and right to an insecure high-step move (crux, a fall could hurt) and continue up with sustained climbing past 5 more bolts (9+/10a). Traverse straight right for 30 feet past one set of anchors (don't belay here; it's an 80' rap to ground  from here) and continue with wild climbing (5.10b with big swing potential) to another set of anchors (belay here; 95' rap to ground from here).  

Buck Rio wrote: Falling on trad gear IMO is never optimal. Sure there are a lot of people doing it, doesn't mean it is a good idea.

I also am not a strong climber...I place gear when convenient and obvious, or when absolutely needed. Otherwise I am trying to get to the next stance to put more gear in, which may be further away than I would like. So you get used to running it out a little when you can see where the next piece will go.  I also am not afraid to double up on gear if the next moves are an obvious crux: say pulling a roof, or a thin traverse or mantle move.

One example is pro-ing up the Bastille crack before stepping off the big flake on P1.  The crack is polished, best to put in a couple of good pieces rather than have one blow and be on the ground.

The real mind fucks are trad routes that are either bolted or mixed. If they were lead bolted, they can be a long ways apart. Think JTree, Figures on a Landscape.

P1) An incredible pitch!! Face climb up and right 30' to the first bolt (easy, but don't screw it up). From the bolt climb up and right to an insecure high-step move (crux, a fall could hurt) and continue up with sustained climbing past 5 more bolts (9+/10a). Traverse straight right for 30 feet past one set of anchors (don't belay here; it's an 80' rap to ground  from here) and continue with wild climbing (5.10b with big swing potential) to another set of anchors (belay here; 95' rap to ground from here).  

WTF. I have no idea what i just read. Especially the bolded part.

Can you please explain why falling on trad gear is never optimal?

Different people get different things out of climbing, I suppose.  For me, I'd rather hang on (good) gear than fall and possibly break something.  Yeah, it feels good to onsight trad, but it also feels good to have everything still working for the next climbing day.  There's also the idea that I'm playing the long game with trad, rather than chasing grades - even if you hung, you still did the moves, got up the route, and hopefully became a teeny bit stronger in the process, mentally and physically.

The real trick is knowing the area, and where to find routes that are juuust a teeny bit harder, in moves or gear but not both, than you've done before.  My personal example - a 5.7 in Voo will probably destroy my skin, but I know the gear is gonna be great unless it's a wide chimney.  A 5.7 in Eldo will probably have moves I hopefully shouldn't fall on, over gear I probably don't want to try falling on.

Tim Stich wrote:

Amen, dude. After hearing about a few guys cratering in Eldo over the years and the details, you come to realize that onsight, redpoint, whatever doesn't mean much.

Agreed, onsighting trad at a grade where moves are tough pushes by default. There are plenty enough spots where gear and takes are not possible, better to use your supply of psychological strength then. Can always repeat it later if it was enjoyable. 

What kind of partner(s) do you climb with? For me I've gained considerable insight and inspiration from climbing with partners that are experienced and know when to go for it and when not to. My hardest, proudest trad leads have been with experienced, supportive partners that I trust when they say, "I know you can do this pitch" and "you're in a great spot to go for it." 

master gumby wrote:

WTF. I have no idea what i just read. Especially the bolded part.

Can you please explain why falling on trad gear is never optimal?

Use your imagination, you'll figure it out...I gotta catch a train or I would expound on it.

Nathan Sullivan's statement poses the perfect question in his opening sentence: what do you want to get out of your climbing experience? If you're trying to see how far you are capable of pushing your mind and body, then you must learn to compartmentalize that fear and make SOUND, RATIONAL decisions based on real information. Decide where your threshold is for risk of injury vs reward of personal accomplishment/experience, and work from that. Some people decide that they want to send E9 or X rated routes. Their threshold for acceptable risk is high. Some people stick to G rated climbing. I know climbers that have been doing it for decades and never led a pitch. The answer is different for everyone. There is NOTHING wrong with sitting on gear or backing off when something gets too hairy. Just don't sit on that piece simply because you're afraid to whip on a solid piece of gear with nothing but air below you if your goal is pushing limits...half the time you'll end up getting the onsight and walking away feeling like you learned something about yourself that you never would have found out otherwise. I learned who I am as a person on rocks. I learned that I am mentally hard as fuck(and physically far softer than I want to be). I learned to be almost totally unshakeable in day to day life because nothing that happens in the normal world compares to the pressure and fear I experience on the wall. I learned what's really important to me in this life that is too goddamned short, and so precariously balanced between life and death. I might get in a car accident driving to dinner tonight. I'll be damned if I don't find out exactly what I'm capable of at every opportunity I'm given, because I don't know how many I will be given.

Didn't intend on getting so deep when I started that rant, but there it is! :-) hope you all enjoyed