Extending distant anchors

After the crux moves of a multi-pitch climb, I reached a "somewhat inclined huge ledge"*, after which there were some far-from-each-other gear placements at the base of the next pitch (like 20m from the edge!). So, to loose as little time as possible and to couch my partner through the crux, I extended the anchor in the following way:

I tied an overhand on a bight with a huge loop right after my tie-in knots. Cloved the gear and untied from the rope, using a prusik to move to the edge. Realising how stretchy the ropes were, I sat and used the prusik to tension the rope as much as my arms could pull**. Then I created a master point with another overhand on a bight where I clipped a cam I could place in a crack, the belay device, and myself.
My partner did fall at the crux but I think the system didn't get loaded much. The gentle lip added some friction and I was able to push with my legs. My partner swung back into the wall and, injected with adrenaline from the fall, came right up. She clipped into the upper prusik and walked up to the anchors, where she switched rope ends. Meanwhile I undid everything and moved back up with my prusik.
Finally pulled the rope from the pile at the edge and tied in again.

** Looking back, I should have clipped an overhand on a bight to myself before tensioning the rope, or better still, before reaching the edge. Then create the master point, clip into it and finally undo the catastrophe knot.

I am looking for other ways to do this, maybe with less fiddling. Also feedback is welcome.

* I don't know the english word for the "somewhat inclined huge ledge". In spanish its called "llambria" and is defined as a "section of the rock outcrop that forms an inclined plane of extremely smooth and polished rock, originated from the slow movement of glaciers" This plane usually spans across a large if not all the face of a rock outcrop. Anyone knows what the name would be in english?

I just clove in to the anchor with a little more length than I need, and then clove in again on a biner to my belay loop to adjust the slack in my tether when I walk to/from the edge of the ledge.

Russ B wrote: I just clove in to the anchor with a little more length than I need, and then clove in again on a biner to my belay loop to adjust the slack in my tether when I walk to/from the edge of the ledge.

Faster probably but also cumbersome, pulling in 20m and then walking fairly unprotected until the second clove. I like its more simple though.
In this case I needed the rope to build the anchor (anchor points were more than 2m away from each other) so I could not do that. Unless I built the anchor with one rope and use the other one to do as you suggest. *EDIT: Still need to untie from the anchor rope.

Thanks

This is the kind of situation where a cordelette gives you speedier options, though I get it’s not for every one. But with the flexibility of two ropes I’d opt to build the anchor with one rope and self munter belay off the anchor to edge of the ledge if it’s exposed for the new master point and once there clove to the new master point or just clove the belay side tail of my munter to my belay loop.

1. Munter at the master point with your lead line.
2. Lower yourself to the edge of the cliff.
3. Put a overhand on a bight on both load & brake strand.
4. Use this new knot as your masterpoint for belaying your follower.
5. When follower arrives, move together on belay back up to the OG masterpoint. 

The combination of building the anchor with the rope as well as the very long distance to the edge takes a lot of options off the table (unless this is a 40m pitch and you have an 80m rope...).

If we take as given that you will need to untie, then I would recommend rappelling to the edge (rather than prusiking).

If your partner then ascends on the prusik, they can belay you up (no need for you to ascend the fixed ropes).   However, depending on the angle of the ledge and the experience/skill of the partner, it might not be appropriate to let them ascend 20m on a prusik.   If that was the case, you could anchor them at the edge, ascend the ropes (on belay), then belay them up.

Fran M wrote: Faster probably but also cumbersome, pulling in 20m and then walking fairly unprotected until the second clove. I like its more simple though.
In this case I needed the rope to build the anchor (anchor points were more than 2m away from each other) so I could not do that. Unless I built the anchor with one rope and use the other one to do as you suggest. *EDIT: Still need to untie from the anchor rope.

Thanks

You just loosen the clove as you walk out, so you're not really unprotected at all and It's much less cumbersome than tying autoblocking knots and untying from the rope. Nothings wrong with only using one of your ropes in the anchor either. 

I think this BMC video is illustrative of an extended rope anchor option using half ropes, unless you needed to untie because your were out of rope.

mbk wrote: The combination of building the anchor with the rope as well as the very long distance to the edge takes a lot of options off the table (unless this is a 40m pitch and you have an 80m rope...).

25m pitch. 20m ledge. 60m ropes. Anchor pieces 2m away from each other. So I needed a lot of rope to connect them. Maybe shy of10m.

If we take as given that you will need to untie, then I would recommend rappelling to the edge (rather than prusiking).

If your partner then ascends on the prusik, they can belay you up (no need for you to ascend the fixed ropes).   However, depending on the angle of the ledge and the experience/skill of the partner, it might not be appropriate to let them ascend 20m on a prusik.   If that was the case, you could anchor them at the edge, ascend the ropes (on belay), then belay them up.

The ledge was made of slick rock, angled around 20 degrees.

Thanks for the advice.

Russ B wrote:

You just loosen the clove as you walk out, so you're not really unprotected at all and It's much less cumbersome than tying autoblocking knots and untying from the rope. Nothings wrong with only using one of your ropes in the anchor either. 

Loosening a clove while walking 20m does sound cumbersome to me. Also sounds cumbersome to pull in 20m (you are at the bottom of the stack), clove that to the anchor and then another one to your belay loop with the backside of the anchor clove. If I had thought of making the anchor with one rope I would have lowered myself with the other. Or rappel the anchor rope as suggested by mbk.

Why did you feel the need to get the masterpoint over to the edge? Was the edge really sharp and you didn't want to load it over the edge? Given what you just described I would have just belayed much closer to the gear and not worried about getting to the edge but maybe I'm missing something.

Edit: I'm a little tired now I see you wanted to coach them through the crux. I probably would have still stuck with my original option. I usually belay the follower in guide mode so worst case is I could rap down on the break strand (or friction hitch if it's as low angle as you're describing) to establish contact with them and then go back to the masterpoint

Bryan wrote:Edit: I'm a little tired now I see you wanted to coach them through the crux. I probably would have still stuck with my original option. I usually belay the follower in guide mode so worst case is I could rap down on the break strand (or friction hitch if it's as low angle as you're describing) to establish contact with them and then go back to the masterpoint

I couldn't give a proper belay being 20m from the edge, even worse with the friction at the lip. With if I needed to lower them? communication? Guide mode and large ledge are a big no for me. I didn't extend over the edge though. Just sat at the edge with the master point by my side.

Fran M wrote:
* I don't know the english word for the "somewhat inclined huge ledge". In spanish its called "llambria" and is defined as a "section of the rock outcrop that forms an inclined plane of extremely smooth and polished rock, originated from the slow movement of glaciers" This plane usually spans across a large if not all the face of a rock outcrop. Anyone knows what the name would be in english?

Slab. Sloping ledge.

I do the same thing Russ B does. Seems like you overcomplicated this system by thinking you must use both ropes to belay up your 2nd when, really, you only needed one. Use 1 to build anchor and to belay yourself back to the edge. Use the 2nd to belay up your climber. 

I don't get what's so cumbersome about estimating the distance you need, hand over handing yourself down the teather, then adjusting your clove once you're down there.

I did this at least 3 times this weekend, and probably about 8 in the last week, and who knows how many times in the past years. It works well, and it's part of the toolbox that regularly gets me up grade III routes after work.

If ya end up finding a better and more efficient way, please let us know.

FosterK wrote: I think this BMC video is illustrative of an extended rope anchor option using half ropes, unless you needed to untie because your were out of rope.

does anyone else see a few glaring faults with this system...mainly if his 2nd becomes incapacitated, how does he easily get out of the system?  seems complicated...

T G wrote: Build your anchor at the higher stance. Hang two locking carabiners from it, and clip yourself into both lockers. Grab the rope between the two locking carabiners on the anchor (which is the back side of your lead rope), and lower yourself or down climb to your chosen stance below. Clove hitch this middle strand to a locking carabiner on your belay loop. Now you can go off belay while secured by the clove hitch on your harness. Belay your follower off of your harness on the strand of rope that is redirected through the anchor above you. Adjust the height of your stance via your clove hitch. In this configuration you don't need to estimate the length of rope you need to get to your lower stance and you belay your follower on a redirect through the master point of your anchor. If you want even more security while lowering yourself or down climbing, you can Munter hitch into the anchor as stated above.

Yes, this will use a fair bit of rope, so this configuration may not work for you if you expect to create a stance 20m below your anchor.

Exactly what I do in these situations.

I then belay the climber all the way back up to the anchor.
Depending on the precarity of the situation, I'll walk back to the anchor or haul myself off the end with the clove hitch (which remain tied).

curt86iroc wrote:

does anyone else see a few glaring faults with this system...mainly if his 2nd becomes incapacitated, how does he easily get out of the system?  seems complicated...

Well, in the context of the OP's question, the biggest fault would be that your anchor would use up about 400 feet of rope.

Bryce Adamson wrote:

Well, in the context of the OP's question, the biggest fault would be that your anchor would use up about 400 feet of rope.

The OP isn't explicitly concerned with amount of rope required.

Fran M wrote: After the crux moves of a multi-pitch climb, I reached a "somewhat inclined huge ledge"*, after which there were some far-from-each-other gear placements at the base of the next pitch (like 20m from the edge!). So, to loose as little time as possible and to couch my partner through the crux, I extended the anchor in the following way:

I tied an overhand on a bight with a huge loop right after my tie-in knots. Cloved the gear and untied from the rope, using a prusik to move to the edge. Realising how stretchy the ropes were, I sat and used the prusik to tension the rope as much as my arms could pull**. Then I created a master point with another overhand on a bight where I clipped a cam I could place in a crack, the belay device, and myself.
My partner did fall at the crux but I think the system didn't get loaded much. The gentle lip added some friction and I was able to push with my legs. My partner swung back into the wall and, injected with adrenaline from the fall, came right up. She clipped into the upper prusik and walked up to the anchors, where she switched rope ends. Meanwhile I undid everything and moved back up with my prusik.
Finally pulled the rope from the pile at the edge and tied in again.

** Looking back, I should have clipped an overhand on a bight to myself before tensioning the rope, or better still, before reaching the edge. Then create the master point, clip into it and finally undo the catastrophe knot.

I am looking for other ways to do this, maybe with less fiddling. Also feedback is welcome.

* I don't know the english word for the "somewhat inclined huge ledge". In spanish its called "llambria" and is defined as a "section of the rock outcrop that forms an inclined plane of extremely smooth and polished rock, originated from the slow movement of glaciers" This plane usually spans across a large if not all the face of a rock outcrop. Anyone knows what the name would be in english?

Whoa!  That's a lot of whoofuckery to accomplish something simple.  Untying from the rope adds unneeded risk, too.  And some of the suggestion you received could use up to 40 meters (120 ft) of rope if you lower yourself in some way.  

So, worst case scenario, you have no extra rope:

Simply build your anchor with green rope only.  Make a master point.  Fix green rope to master point.  Attach yourself to green rope with munter.  Untie from green rope.  Rap green rope on a munter to desired location.  Tie munter off with mule overhand (MMO).  Belay your partner to you.  If you don't know the MMO, you could use a clove.  Just pull slack through it until you get to your desired location.  

Once your partner reaches you, there are a number of ways to get you both to the anchor safely.  I'll leave that out.

OP, that looks complicated and time consuming. I do what Andy said (above)—it’s quick and you can belay yourselves back up to the main anchor. 

Russ B wrote: I don't get what's so cumbersome about estimating the distance you need, hand over handing yourself down the teather, then adjusting your clove once you're down there.

Pulling and stacking a rope with my end at the bottom, fumbling with a clove hitch while walking (loose clove might not lock), using more than double the length of the ledge. Over 40m in this case, which I did not have.

I did this at least 3 times this weekend, and probably about 8 in the last week, and who knows how many times in the past years. It works well, and it's part of the toolbox that regularly gets me up grade III routes after work.

If ya end up finding a better and more efficient way, please let us know.

Well, as I said in my first reply to you, if I had build the anchor with only one rope, I would rappel or prusik down that fixed rope. Still need to untie but given the length of the ledge in my case, I guess there is no way around that.