ATC Guide instead of GriGri for Simul Climbing?

I have some upcoming alpine rock trips and have been thinking about my system for simul climbing. I like the idea of the GriGri and progress capture device system (like shown here: vdiffclimbing.com/simul-cli… ), but I'd love to not have to carry the extra weight of a GriGri. So, does anyone have any experience with or thoughts about using an atc guide in place of the grigri? I'm planning on climbing with a single 8.7mm rope. Obviously a stopper knot behind the device would be important. To transition to active belaying you would just clip the biner holding the rope in the device to your belay loop and then unclip the autoblock attachment biner. It seems to me this could work well for both leader and follower to carry some coils and be able to adjust the length of the rope as they are climbing, but I'd love any feedback others have about the setup, especially from anyone that tried using an atc guide, reverso, mega jul or something similar for simul climbing.

I found the grigri to be better, as switching the atc from autoblock to normal belay wasn't worth it, esp cause you have to open the gate that is holding the rope while your climber is still climbing. Alternatively, use a alpine smart by mammut.

You can use the "alpine Grigri" as a way to mitigate the risk of opening the gate of the belay biner when switching modes, but then you'll be climbing with a quickdraw dangling from your belay loop... when you add up the weight of the ATC, three locking biners, and a dogbone, it just doesn't seem worth it.

Chris W wrote: I have some upcoming alpine rock trips and have been thinking about my system for simul climbing. I like the idea of the GriGri and progress capture device system (like shown here: vdiffclimbing.com/simul-cli… ), but I'd love to not have to carry the extra weight of a GriGri. So, does anyone have any experience with or thoughts about using an atc guide in place of the grigri? I'm planning on climbing with a single 8.7mm rope. Obviously a stopper knot behind the device would be important. To transition to active belaying you would just clip the biner holding the rope in the device to your belay loop and then unclip the autoblock attachment biner. It seems to me this could work well for both leader and follower to carry some coils and be able to adjust the length of the rope as they are climbing, but I'd love any feedback others have about the setup, especially from anyone that tried using an atc guide, reverso, mega jul or something similar for simul climbing.

The GriGri2 (or new GriGri) is really pretty light--two large lockers plus an ATC-Guide can weigh more than one small locker and a GriGri2, depending on the specific carabiners, for "equivalent" tools. However, the GriGri is an incredibly versatile device that is easier to use in this application (and many others) than a plaquette (i.e ATC-Guide or similar). In plaquette mode, it can be a pain to feed rope through the device to shorten the distance between climbers, and equally difficult to feed it back out as this requires defeating the plaquette. Both of these tasks can be done with one hand with the GriGri, which is a big advantage in the simul-climbing context. If you won't be adjusting rope lengths that often, then just skip screwing around with a plaquette and tie in directly on a knot. Leave the belay device hanging on your belay loop and toss it on the rope when needed to belay your partner through the cruxy section.

I found the grigri to be better, as switching the atc from autoblock to normal belay wasn't worth it, esp cause you have to open the gate that is holding the rope while your climber is still climbing. Alternatively, use a alpine smart by mammut.

A Smart, MegaJul, etc. may be reasonable choices, but they are far less tested in this realm and can slip at rather low loads, perhaps 2kn (https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/112357901/the-deadly-atc?page=12#ForumMessage-112439167). It would be pretty terrible for the leader to fall, the rope to slip in the device, and the follower to get strangled by their rope coils.

You can use the "alpine Grigri" as a way to mitigate the risk of opening the gate of the belay biner when switching modes, but then you'll be climbing with a quickdraw dangling from your belay loop... when you add up the weight of the ATC, three locking biners, and a dogbone, it just doesn't seem worth it.

Agreed. Use a GriGri, lighter, simpler, easier. And practice in advance of your trip.

Why does the linked article reference a GriGri? For simul who cares what you belay with....?

Thanks for all the comments--some good stuff to consider! Since I'll need an ATC for rappelling anyway the weight savings of not taking a grigri aren't insignificant. The 'alpine grigri' photos gave me the idea that I could girth hitch a sling and wrap it around and back up to the locker on the biner holding the rope in order to never need to unclip that one while belaying (and saving the weight of an additional locker). I'm definitely conscious of the greater difficulty of rope management with an autoblock and may end up just tying in and skipping the whole belay device/progress capture system. I'm not overly concerned about the slippage issue given that the system would virtually always be backed up with a knot. Based on the responses so far I'm inclined to give the system a test run at least.

Chris W,
Instead of an ATC, why not just use a clove hitch?

Otherwise I’d go with the above advice and use the well-proven  Grigri. It may be heavier but it is so much easier to use (ascending and descending) you’ll undoubtedly be more efficient, faster and safer than any other method.

Climb safe,
Mal

For simul, I like to half my skinny 60m tag line (which is a double/half rope anyways) and use it as a 30m double rope. ATC works well for this. If you're belaying, just belay - simul with appropriate slack otherwise, always leave the ATC clipped in active belay mode. Sure as f*ck shouldn't be coming close to testing your belay device while simuling - it should be treated as two soloists connected by a rope.

Both climbers should be tied in, no matter what setup, also.

Great excuse to buy another rope:
https://shop.epictv.com/en/half-ropes/tendon/lowe-84mm-standard?sku=TEN15_CLIROP_LOW 

I agree using a Grigri is easiest for managing slack safely while simul-following; however, I've used the BD Pilot for the same purpose. It doesn't lock up as well but it seems adequate for most simul or PCD-simul terrain.

I rarely carry a Grigri in alpine or even on most multipitch. I bring both an ATC guide and pilot. Supposedly the Edelrid mega/giga jul belay devices can do it all while keeping weight/bulk minimal, but reviews have always been pretty mixed.

Roots wrote: Why does the linked article reference a GriGri? For simul who cares what you belay with....?

A GriGri allows you to move slack in/out of the system while also serving as a secure attachment point to the rope. Few other devices can do this as well as a GriGri can.

Chris W wrote:...may end up just tying in and skipping the whole belay device/progress capture system...

I'd recommend practicing more. Progress capture devices have greatly reduced conventional risks associated with simuling and there are very few reasons to simul without one. They do introduce another learning curve, but the advantages are pretty clear.

mammut smart or jul would be better than an atc in guide mode. But honestly a grigri 2 does not weight enough to complain about weight. If the extra ounce or whatever puts you over the edge then you must be climbing 5.13 and should probably not be simul-climbing, or someone needs to get some exercise if an extra ounce or two shuts them down. All joking aside, a grigri 2 is a very useful alpine tool. You'll be stoked you have it if any rescue situations arise. That said, if you're just doing something way mellow, like a Mathes Crest,  NR of Stuart, or W. Ridge of Forbidden type climb then just bring an ATC and manage the slack by climbing the speed of the leader and don't worry too much about a little slack when hurrying ahead to clean gear, etc. I've been alpine climbing 25+ years and have never actually bothered with Tiblocing (progress capture). Simuling as described above, or short roping harder sections goes a lot faster for me than climbing slow and scared worried about my partner fucking up simuling hard terrain.
There are some interesting methods of simulclimbing like the infinite loop I still havent tried but sound like the ticket on hard terrain (as described in my book :)---  )
https://www.amazon.com/Climbing-Stronger-Faster-Healthier-Beyond/dp/149965667X/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=climbing+stronger+faster&qid=1558474270&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Chris W wrote:...Since I'll need an ATC for rappelling anyway...

ATC is not necessary for rappelling. The follower gets a GriGri, the leader gets the ATC-Guide (or their own GriGri). When rappelling, just pre-rig, knot block, or otherwise fix the rope for the first person to descend with the GriGri. Or simul-rap, but let's not get into that here.

The 'alpine grigri' photos gave me the idea that I could girth hitch a sling and wrap it around and back up to the locker on the biner holding the rope in order to never need to unclip that one while belaying (and saving the weight of an additional locker). 

Indeed, but unnecessary when you bring that GriGri.

I'm definitely conscious of the greater difficulty of rope management with an autoblock and may end up just tying in and skipping the whole belay device/progress capture system. 

If this is a viable option, it would certainly be simpler and recommended. However, at that point, you might be in simul-solo terrain, not simul-climb terrain then.

I'm not overly concerned about the slippage issue given that the system would virtually always be backed up with a knot. 

Sure. But you better make damn sure you have that back-up knot then. And if you're gonna use something that slips and requires back-up knots, why knot just tie in hard and skip the shenanigans since you'll have to tie and untie a knot anyway?

Based on the responses so far I'm inclined to give the system a test run at least.

Yes, definitely test anything in advance of employing it on an alpine climb near your limit.