Full coverage helmets

Larry S wrote:

He caught an edge with his feet during the fall, bounced off, and was sent inverted.

This.  The "don't put your leg behind the rope" is a climbing 101 answer that avoids the fact that these falls can and do happen.  I fell off a route about 10-12 feet to the right and up from my gear.  Foot dragged a bit as I came off and I ended up inverting and slamming the back of my head against the wall.  I was wearing a plastic basic BD helmet.  I got a concussion and now only wear full coverage foam helmets.

J. Albers wrote:

Sheesh. A lot you people act like inverting falling is a given. Its not. And if you are falling inverted, you are almost certainly doing something wrong. There is a time and a place for a helmet for sure, and I definitely wear a helmet on some routes (I never leave the ground on R-rated routes, trad, multipitch, ice, or alpine without one). That said, it is extremely tiring to hear people go on and on about how a helmet keeps you safe. It can help for sure. But perhaps more important than a helmet is learning how to NOT FALL INVERTED. Accidents do happen and sure, freak things like catching an edge weird can cause you to go upside down. But if you lack control of your body to the point that you go inverted if you fall while mantling, or you go inverted because you are on a slab, well then you need to spend some time learning how to climb in more controlled manner. And ledgy terrain? If its sport bolted, then you shouldn't be hitting ledges period or you and your belayer screwed up. And if its run out? Don't fall!! Seriously. That's what going to keep you safe. I see this kind of attitude all the time out climbing these days. Sketch fest person climbing, but hey, they have a helmet on, so press onward!! Wrong idea. 

Between my close partners and I there are literally over a hundred years of climbing experience and none of those people are getting hurt taking inverted falls. And no, they aren't noobs, many of them have been climbing since the 70's doing varied types of climbing from runout slab routes on the Apron, to tightly bolted sport routes, to ice on the Parkway. Climbing is supposed to be an apprenticeship that means more than just how hard you can pull. Don't gloss over that fact by putting on a helmet and thinking you're "safe". Ask yourself this. When you watch Dawn Wall, do you see Tommy and Kevin wearing helmets the majority of the time? Nope. And it sure seems like they are falling a lot. Probably more falls than everyone on this forum (myself included) have taken all year. And its not their mad thumb pressing skills on vert that are keeping them safe. Its that they are in control of their bodies so that don't take bad falls. Give that some thought. \

And to be clear, I'm NOT telling anyone not to wear a helmet. I'm just speaking to the context that people talk about helmets whereby people give an example of where a helmet did or would have helped but where they make no mention of the more important aspect, which was the manner in which the climber was climbing.

Nobody acted as though it’s a given, inversion does however have a higher probability of happening on slab due to the points already mentioned. There’s just more variables and more potential for accidents. All statements directed at you were about your inaccurate to this occurrence statement of “don’t step in front of the rope” which is a fantastic rule but does not apply here. 

J. Albers wrote:

That is such a complete false equivalency, its hard to even take you seriously. When you ride a motorcycle, there are a sh*t ton of variables beyond your control that can lead to an accident with dire consequences. When you're sport climbing, there are very few objective hazards and thus your safety is, to a very large degree, completely under your and your belayers control. And that's difference between wearing a helmet on an alpine "sport" route (notable objective hazards) versus a cleaned up single pitch crag (low objective hazard circumstance). And if you can't differentiate between the two, then I don't know what to tell you.

I can differentiate between different levels of risk and consequence.

What I cannot do is tell others what their personal comfort level should be.

What are the core design differences between a MIPs climbing helmet and something like a Bell super MTB w/ MIPs?  It doesn't look like it from the pictures but the Super MTB has much more coverage and is twice as heavy (still under 16oz).  I agree that always wear a helmet leading is good advice for a new climber but have often wondered if the helmets worn are ideal.  Most climbing helmets are designed for falling objects, weight, and other impacts; likely in this order.  For a new single pitch leader where headstikes are more likely than falling objects is a MTB helmet more ideal than a climbing helmet?

(I know we're already talking about the extremely small probabilities of accidents.  Also if you haven't read up on MIPs it makes a really big difference in head impacts with relative speed between the athlete and the surface.  Same principles of pulling on the brain stem that a HANS device prevents in race cars.)

Jason Eberhard wrote: What are the core design differences between a MIPs climbing helmet and something like a Bell super MTB w/ MIPs?  It doesn't look like it from the pictures but the Super MTB has much more coverage and is twice as heavy (still under 16oz).  I agree that always wear a helmet leading is good advice for a new climber but have often wondered if the helmets worn are ideal.  Most climbing helmets are designed for falling objects, weight, and other impacts; likely in this order.  For a new single pitch leader where headstikes are more likely than falling objects is a MTB helmet more ideal than a climbing helmet?

(I know we're already talking about the extremely small probabilities of accidents.  Also if you haven't read up on MIPs it makes a really big difference in head impacts with relative speed between the athlete and the surface.  Same principles of pulling on the brain stem that a HANS device prevents in race cars.)

The hard plastic on top of the wall rider is puncture resistant to deal with falling rocks, more so than the shell of a bike helmet. Other than that, I would guess that the foam liner of the wall rider is thinner than the bike helmet and provides less head coverage. So the bike helmet may provide better protection against a head strike. It all depends on the testing standards that the helmet has been designed to pass...  

J. Albers wrote:

Wanna know what's more important than a helmet? Don't put your stupid leg behind the rope and fall inverted. Problem solved. 

I was there for this incident. The climber caught a draw or edge with his foot and flipped. No back step. Only error was not putting on a helmet. Gonna be "that person" giving out helmets from now on. But definitely no use in personally criticizing someone's climbing technique, let's focus on general prevention and protection. And educate newer climbers at the crag without being jerks. 

S M wrote:

I was there for this incident. The climber caught a draw or edge with his foot and flipped. No back step. Only error was not putting on a helmet. Gonna be "that person" giving out helmets from now on. But definitely no use in personally criticizing someone's climbing technique, let's focus on general prevention and protection. And educate newer climbers at the crag without being jerks. 

I BIG second J Albers. Learn to climb better and you will avoid flipping over backwards. You should always be very aware of what will happen if you fall and adjust accordingly.

Learn to accept criticism from people who know more than you with the mileage to prove it.

Tradiban wrote:

I BIG second J Albers. Learn to climb better and you will avoid flipping over backwards. You should always be very aware of what will happen if you fall and adjust accordingly.

Learn to accept criticism from people who know more than you with the mileage to prove it.

If anyone is unsure about whether they are supposed to wear a helmet on a particular climb, call the Tradiban Hotline for specific guidance.

Tradiban wrote:

I BIG second J Albers. Learn to climb better and you will avoid flipping over backwards. You should always be very aware of what will happen if you fall and adjust accordingly.

Learn to accept criticism from people who know more than you with the mileage to prove it.

The only way to "learn to climb better" is to climb. Which inherently means taking risks even if a Stonemaster is standing under you with a megaphone giving beta. A helmet is a necessity. Period. The mental image of the aftermath of this accident is all the proof I need of that. 

A lot of assumptions and analogies going on in this thread (in usual MP style). There is some truth on both sides of these arguments, yes many (most?) traumatic brain injuries in climbing are in your control. Rockfall from above is inherently rare - if anything the leader is more likely to pull something off and clock the belayer. New climbers getting ropes caught behind the leg is much more common, but now we have two first hand accounts of this incident saying that was not the case. Shit can happen, and usually it happens in an instant.

I think the central point that most everyone can agree on: wearing a helmet is never a bad idea. I personally know I don't climb any harder with or without a helmet on. I mean, it might not be as sexy for your insta-face post, but it could save your skull if you fuck up.

When it comes down to it, it's a personal choice. People are righteous behind the keyboard, but please don't be that person at the crag telling some stranger to put a helmet on.

S M wrote:

The only way to "learn to climb better" is to climb. Which inherently means taking risks even if a Stonemaster is standing under you with a megaphone giving beta. A helmet is a necessity. Period. The mental image of the aftermath of this accident is all the proof I need of that. 

Ummm...no. To learn to climb better you need to think more about your climbing. It's not a mindless exercise. There should be a constant analysis going on, like a reverse meditation perhaps. However you want to think about it, it doesn't matter, just keep using yer brain to stay safe, a helmet helps but not alot.

Go Wisconsin!???

IMO never take advice from sport climbers from Wisconsin.

Hah!   The douchebaggery.  Yep climb stronger, dont fall, you dont need a helmet if you are tough enough.

I was there and had this climber been able to or thought is was permissable in the current climbing ethic to have grabbed the draw he had placed this accident might have been prevented.

Learn to climb better sounds like a robo call from some AI designed to distract and intefere in politics. 

Bunch of people, largely those that werent there trying to influence opinion about a thing that they arent invested in.  

If you dont wear a helmet, for whatever reason, what is even the point of commenting?  Wearing a helmet isnt going to cause more harm. I get the “false sense of security” thing but thats not what the negativos preech.

Learn to climb better. Hah!

Learn to have fun while staying alive to climb another day. 

. Mobes wrote: IMO never take advice from sport climbers from Wisconsin.

Jimmy Bricker wrote: Hah!   The douchebaggery.  Yep climb stronger, dont fall, you dont need a helmet if you are tough enough.

I was there and had this climber been able to or thought is was permissable in the current climbing ethic to have grabbed the draw he had placed this accident might have been prevented.

Learn to climb better sounds like a robo call from some AI designed to distract and intefere in politics.

Bunch of people, largely those that werent there trying to influence opinion about a thing that they arent invested in.  

If you dont wear a helmet, for whatever reason, what is even the point of commenting?  Wearing a helmet isnt going to cause more harm. I get the “false sense of security” thing but thats not what the negativos preech.

Learn to climb better. Hah!

Learn to have fun while staying alive to climb another day. 

Couldn’t have said it better. I was also there yesterday and it happened in an instant. Climbing is an exercise in risk management. Erring in the side of caution with a helmet could have changed the outcome dramatically for the better. Instead, a mid 20 year old is in the hospital with a possibility for a long recovery road at best. 
Think of those around you. Open skull fractures aren’t pretty. 

This is Kelly Cordes’ head after falling on a 5.13 overhanging sport route.

‘Nuff said...
Climb safe, wear a helmet.
Kelly does. Now.
Mal

Edited for link to Kelly’s story: ​Now that’s a hard head!​​​

Larry S wrote: More helmets with full coverage... Petzl Meteor, petzl boreo, camp storm, edelrid shield, tango zenith, mammut wallrider....

If anyone has had a serious look at the foam helmet market recently, please advice which helmet gives the best coverage at the rear of the head. Last time I checked a couple of years back I was mightily disappointed as it seemed that all manufacturers were only trying to pass the UIAA test, which doesn't (or at least didn't) test for side or rear impact. I ended up with the BD Vector, but was not satisfied with the "inverted U cutout" at the rear end leaving the most sensitive part of the skull wide open.

Malcolm Daly wrote: This is Kelly Cordes’ head after falling on a 5.13 overhanging sport route.

‘Nuff said...
Climb safe, wear a helmet.
Kelly does. Now.
Mal

Jebus is that ugly. Bet Kelly lost a lot of blood. Hope he is okay and didn't suffer any long term head trauma. 

Care to elaborate on how that occurred on an overhanging sport route though? And that's a serious question, I'm not trying to be d*ck here. That said (and you can correct me if I'm wrong), what you're implying here is that if Kelly Cordes can split his head on an overhanging sport route, than it can happen to anyone. The underlying assumption there is that Kelly is a pro, ergo he is plenty competent and this injury was a random/unlucky occurrence and was not associated with a pretty grave mistake. To which my response would be, well, plenty of experienced folks have bad habits that could cause this. Anyway, it would be good to know what exactly happened.

Jimmy Bricker wrote: Hah!   The douchebaggery.  Yep climb stronger, dont fall, you dont need a helmet if you are tough enough.

You are completely missing the point. Its got nothing to do with climbing harder or being tough. All some of us are pointing out is that "these days" there appear to be a lot of climbers out there who are helmet preachers, but what they really (really) need to do is spend more time thinking and focusing on how they climb because THAT in the long run is what will keep them safe. The helmet might help a bit in some circumstances, but what will really help is not getting yourself in a bad position in the first place. Its really not people being preachy douchebags (though you can take it that way if you like), rather its just folks trying to get people to not put so much credence into thinking that a helmet will do more than it will.