Leading mixed vs leading ice

Will gadd has his "you should TR 150 pitches of ice before leading" thing which I fould to be pretty consistent with my own experience of when I became comfortable leading ice.

What's the consensus for trad mixed leading?

For my part, I've always assumed that if you were solid with trad rock (aka knew how to place and evaluate the quality of your gear) and there were at most snow but no notable ice on the route (or theres ice and you're solid leading ice too), then it'd be fine to just get on the sharp end on a mixed route and see what happens. My thought is that falls can be cleaner (most falls on ice are not), there's less likelihood of snagging a crampon, gear quality is easier to evaluate, and you can push it more or less based on how all those factors stack up at any given point. Thoughts?

Edit: the views expressed above represent the approach I've taken for the past few years. Never toproped mixed, just lead, attempting to onsight. I've held off on recommending the approach to others because for all I know I just got lucky. With more people asking for pointers lately I've gotten to wondering what to say about mixed climbing to inquiring novices. I'm still mostly a  beginner in the mixed game myself. 

As someone who has never done any mixed climbing and has only top-roped on ice:
Falls on ice are dangerous for two reasons: the protection (ice screws) is suspect, and you have four flailing appendages with very sharp edges that are likely to cut you.
Falling on a mixed climb eliminates the first (assuming that the rock is dry) but not the second. And I would imagine that although you may be less likely to catch a crampon on rock than on ice, you're still more likely to catch a crampon point than the toe of your climbing shoe.

But I'm interested in hearing what more experienced folks have to say on the matter.

I can't speak to a consensus, but then again I don't know that you have to get 150 top rope pitches under your belt to lead ice, either. (Not saying there isn't value in that advice.)

I'd recommend the same learning process for trad mixed as for ice or trad rock. Do a bunch of top roping to dial in the movement, start easy, work your way up. There's plenty of times it's not a good idea to fall leading a trad rock climb, and that applies equally if not more so to trad mixed. You can still snag a crampon or impale yourself on a pick, just like on ice. However, if terrain is sufficiently steep, this is less of a concern. It's certainly an underlying premise of plenty of sport mixed, and frankly, if the terrain is steep enough, it's relatively safe to fall on trad mixed or ice (ice screws tend to work as long as the ice is good and you have a belayer who actually acts like you might fall, contrary to most ice belaying I see). A good example is Petzl's Scottish ice trip where you can even see some whips (been a while since I watched it, so I have no idea what time that happens in the video): youtu.be/uG95yGRaooY

As for evaluating placements, that's largely conditions dependent. Icy cracks and/or lots of snow definitely make for more dubious protection. Plan accordingly. Not a bad idea to place more frequently than you might on rock.

So, like everything, it depends. I'd recommend starting easy. But once it's steep, sure, give it hell. I've fallen on trad mixed before and came away fine. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Gavin W wrote:  the protection (ice screws) is suspect,

Ice screws work. Its the ice that's dubious, though you can certainly learn what better ice looks like. The ice typically holds just fine. Kinda like rock pro--it's not the gear, it's operator error.

I'm from the same area and struggling with the same question. The middle grades are not over hanging and still seem damgerous on some level. I just bought a stick clip and I'm hoping that will help me cross that gap in grades safer (Vail). I would think trad routes are similar. Not cool to fall on anything vertical or less.

MyFeetHurt wrote: I'm hoping that will help me cross that gap in grades safer (Vail). I would think trad routes are similar. Not cool to fall on anything vertical or less.

That's generally accurate. A word of caution about Vail and similar zones: much like any other type of rock climbing, there are some differences in climbing style/technique based on rock type, so limestone won't directly translate to granite and vice versa, though there is plenty of cross-over. Also, at many sport mixed crags the holds have been enhance or outright drilled in the first place. Consequently, higher end sport mixed isn't always the same style as higher grades of trad mixed, which tend to be much more delicate, technical, and/or insecure. 

Bogdan P wrote:
For my part, I've always assumed that if you were solid with trad rock (aka knew how to place and evaluate the quality of your gear) and there were at most snow but no notable ice on the route (or theres ice and you're solid leading ice too), then it'd be fine to just get on the sharp end on a mixed route and see what happens. My thought is that falls can be cleaner (most falls on ice are not), there's less likelihood of snagging a crampon, gear quality is easier to evaluate, and you can push it more or less based on how all those factors stack up at any given point. Thoughts?

Mixed does not mean does not mean cleaner falls. While there are many overhanging mixed routes, many are not. Further, overhanging falls are swinging falls where instead of a tool catching it empales with you being the empalee.

Allen Sanderson wrote:

Mixed does not mean does not mean cleaner falls. While there are many overhanging mixed routes, many are not. Further, overhanging falls are swinging falls where instead of a tool catching it empales with you being the empalee.

but as for the original question, how did you start mixed climbing? Endless top roping like on ice, or did you push it further right off the bat and lead some/all your mixed pitches?

Omg people just make your own decisions based off of ability. Wtf does it matter how many pitches of toprope other people think you should do before leading?! Take some personal responsibility...Its not bouldring in a gym, you are not deadpoing a tool torque and cutting feet on 99% of mixed climbes. Think you are ready to lead ice? Try it and if you are not ready down climb!! Gear is there to preavent a deadly accident, were here to make sure we are not falling!

poudrecracks wrote: Omg people just make your own decisions based off of ability. Wtf does it matter how many pitches of toprope other people think you should do before leading?! Take some personal responsibility...Its not bouldring in a gym, you are not deadpoing a tool torque and cutting feet on 99% of mixed climbes. Think you are ready to lead ice? Try it and if you are not ready down climb!! Gear is there to preavent a deadly accident, were here to make sure we are not falling!

Omg dude! Work on your reading comprehension!
This is a question inspired by questions from less experienced people and how i (or you) should go about answering them. I've made my decision. What should I tell people trying to make their own decisions. Your dismissive, and frankly mean, responsive is not something to tell someone 10 years my junior who has no idea what they're doing. . 

Yeah that did come off as mean. After reading it agian I see that it is far to dry and sarcastic that the humor was entierly missed, even on this fourm.

Sorry

poudrecracks wrote: Yeah that did come off as mean. After reading it agian I see that it is far to dry and sarcastic that the humor was entierly missed, even on this fourm.

Sorry

You must be new to the internet. I'm pretty sure you're supposed to double down, and call the other guy's climbing abilities into question :P

Good one Gavin. But to Poundrecraks point, just get out there and do it. If you can set pro, and have reasonable basic ice climbing skills, get on a M2 and try it. 

Mixed lead fall...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oW5l3_-_B8

Jordan W wrote: Mixed lead fall...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oW5l3_-_B8

Well that's unfortunate. 

https://willgadd.com/note-to-self-how-not-to-fall-off-ice-climbing/

Falling on ice leads is dangerous for more than 2 reasons. TR until your so freaking good you can't fall, learn ice dynamics. Remember, a lot of mixed have ice and dry tooling is safer cause your points don't stick and flip as often... but also see YouTube above lol.

Cheers climb safe

Nearly three years later, I still have no answer to my original question, but there are a few tips I've come up with.

0) Mind the local ethics, and climb sustainably. Maybe don't learn try to learn mixed by tooling up the local classic rock routes.

1) Prioritize competence on ice.

2) Own at least two pairs of crampons and learn mixed on your dull ones.

3) Keep an open mind, adapt to what's available, but also recognize you might be in the wrong place for where you are in your progression. (I don't know, I've felt this way at least, but maybe my mind just wasn't open enough, make up your own mind). 

None of these things pertain to safety though.

One thing that has changed is that I now find mixed climbing more dangerous than ice. No different than on ice, falling on rock in crampons breaks ankles, sharps are on your harness, etc, but the gear is in fact worse and more run out, while the stances are more insecure than ice.