Building a fast, safe anchor with double ropes

Hi All: I've started leading multipitch on doubles recently, and usually will build an anchor with a 240cm sling. I reached a hanging belay beneath a horizontal crack and placed 3 solid cams (orange link-cam, gold and red dragons), cloved into two of them with one rope and called off-belay. I clipped the pieces in series using a clove on each piece. It was cold and windy, and fumbling around on my haul loop I realized I didn't have my long sling (where I'd normally keep it). I also didn't have much gear left...just a single alpine draw, a 30cm nylon sling I use to extend my rappel device (and a 3rd sling I only use for backing up my rap).

Given the conditions, I didn't want to spend a lot of time rigging an anchor, so I decided to clove the 2nd rope to the 2nd and 3rd pieces, and left enough slack between the cloves to tie an overhand on the 2nd rope. I then clipped my ATC in guide mode to that powerpoint and belayed up the 2nd (with the ATC attached to one rope). My 2nd then led the last pitch. 

My solution was fast to rig, but I'm not sure if it was adequate or how I should have improved it. I was a little concerned about how I rigged the belay, but my thought was if any of the pieces was less than bomber, I could have backed it up to the 3rd piece with the short sling or alpine draw. 

I also thought about loosening the first rope and pulling more slack between the two pieces, tying a masterpoint as I did with the 2nd rope, and clipping the ATC to both master points...this seemed like it would take a lot of fiddling to get right. 

I also thought in retrospect I could've used bunny ears on both ropes to clip two pieces to each rope, and then clipped the ATC through the "shelf" made my the two ropes clipped to the center piece.

In the end I was trying to be fast and efficient, and only started pondering the safety of the anchor while I was belaying up the second...this is the most sobering thought that led me to post up.

You can always just build a simple pre-equalized pretending the two ropes are one.  You can clove hitch your ropes doubled up no problem as long as their is enough room in the basket of the carabiners. 

The simple and fast anchor setup you used is perfectly adequate given that all three pieces are solid. There isn’t much to be gained from more elaborate rigs.

A good alternative setup is to connect the two closest together pieces with a sliding x (single length sling) and clove one rope to that. Then clove the other rope direct to the third piece. You are now solidly anchored to all three pieces. Not optimally equalized, but that is fine. If you want s madterpoint to belay off of, gather both strands of rope together from the other side of the two cloves, and tie s big 8 on a bight (or overhand on a bight) with both strands of rope. Did I explain that clearly?

There’s 100 different ways to skin this cat, and mist of them are good enough. It’s good to have a couple go-to setups, and be able to adapt to the geometry of that belay and to what gear you have available.

JCM wrote:

The simple and fast anchor setup you used is perfectly adequate given that all three pieces are solid. There isn’t much to be gained from more elaborate rigs.

A good alternative setup is to connect the two closest together pieces with a sliding x (single length sling) and clove one rope to that. Then clove the other rope direct to the third piece. You are now solidly anchored to all three pieces. Not optimally equalized, but that is fine. If you want s madterpoint to belay off of, gather both strands of tops together from the other side of the two cloves, and tie s big 8 on a bight (or overhand on a bight) with both strands of rope. Did I explain that clearly?

Yes, very...that was an option I didn't consider, but it makes a lot of sense.

DrRockso wrote:

You can always just build a simple pre-equalized pretending the two ropes are one.  You can clove hitch your ropes doubled up no problem as long as their is enough room in the basket of the carabiners. 

Thank you sir...I have tried doubling up the ropes and find, unless I'm using an HMS, I can't open the gate easily with so much rope in the basket (these are well-used 8.8mm half ropes)...and I don't usually carry more than two HMS 'biners. At the time, I also wasn't sure if it was "OK" to clove 2 ropes as one...but there were a number of threads that mentioned this is fine. I still find it awkward, especially if I only have one hand available.

Any reason you can't tie a masterpoint with just one rope? I've never climbed on double ropes and know nothing about them but I would think a single strand would be at least as strong as a cordelette. 

Acmesalute76 wrote:

Any reason you can't tie a masterpoint with just one rope? I've never climbed on double ropes and know nothing about them but I would think a single strand would be at least as strong as a cordelette. 

No reason, but it defeats the redundancy of double ropes when attaching anything to the masterpoint, like your 2nd :o

Even though the rope was fatter than a regular cordelette, it was still only attached to two pieces of gear...they were bomber, but I was always taught "3 good pieces" for any trad anchor.

Once we swung leads, I was belaying off my harness and connected directly to the anchor via the two ropes, so I was a lot more happy at that point. 

The value of using both ropes isn't strength/redundancy (it's a rope- it is plenty strong and reducundacy is unneeded), it is the extra flexibility and versatility you get in your rope anchors. Since you have both ropes, you might as well use them. And once you have the rope anchors figured out, they are very efficient.

Another setup I really like is this: Clove one rope to the first piece of gear, and the other rope to the second piece of gear. Then take the strands on the other side of the clove hitch and tie them together into a big 8 or overhand on a bight for the masterpoint (same as described above). If you just have 2 pieces (2 bolt anchor) you are done. If you have a third piece, it is easy to connect in to the masterpoint. The big figure 8 has 4 strands coming out of the top of the knot. 2 of them go to the pieces, and two of them are free. Just take one of the free strands and clove it to the third piece. With a little clove adjustment you can easily get the three pieces nicely equalized to the masterpoint (if you care about that).

I feel discussions of anchors benefit massively from diagrams / photos (even if they're just mockups on the living room floor).

</drive by comment>

If I was in that situation I would just build the rope regularly with one of your ropes and leave the other rope free. If shit hits the fan, it's nice to have a rope that's out of the system. Or, if all of the pieces are solid then clove 2 with one rope, build a masterpoint and clove the 3rd to you. If all you're doing with that masterpoint is belaying up a second then 2 pieces is fine. 

I still find it awkward, especially if I only have one hand available.

One handed clove hitch. 

https://www.climbing.com/.amp/skills/learn-this-one-handed-munter-and-clove-hitches/

ebmudder wrote:

Hi All: I've started leading multipitch on doubles recently, and usually will build an anchor with a 240cm sling. I reached a hanging belay beneath a horizontal crack and placed 3 solid cams (orange link-cam, gold and red dragons), cloved into two of them with one rope and called off-belay. I clipped the pieces in series using a clove on each piece. It was cold and windy, and fumbling around on my haul loop I realized I didn't have my long sling (where I'd normally keep it). I also didn't have much gear left...just a single alpine draw, a 30cm nylon sling I use to extend my rappel device (and a 3rd sling I only use for backing up my rap).

The normal way to do this in the UK - where rope based belays are the norm, as are double ropes - would be

1. clove one rope to first piece

2. clove same rope to next piece, leaving the rope slack between the two,

3. clove the rope coming from the second piece back to the belay loop on your harness with a locker

4. clove other cam with other rope.

Adrienne DiRosario wrote:

One handed clove hitch. 

https://www.climbing.com/.amp/skills/learn-this-one-handed-munter-and-clove-hitches/

LOL...try doing that with two ropes simultaneously and you'll understand my comment!

David Coley wrote:

The normal way to do this in the UK - where rope based belays are the norm, as are double ropes - would be

1. clove one rope to first piece

2. clove same rope to next piece, leaving the rope slack between the two,

3. clove the rope coming from the second piece back to the belay loop on your harness with a locker

4. clove other cam with other rope.

Thanks David: that's a 3rd option that's nice and simple.

JCM wrote:

The value of using both ropes isn't strength/redundancy (it's a rope- it is plenty strong and reducundacy is unneeded), it is the extra flexibility and versatility you get in your rope anchors. Since you have both ropes, you might as well use them. And once you have the rope anchors figured out, they are very efficient.

Another setup I really like is this: Clove one rope to the first piece of gear, and the other rope to the second piece of gear. Then take the strands on the other side of the clove hitch and tie them together into a big 8 or overhand on a bight for the masterpoint (same as described above). If you just have 2 pieces (2 bolt anchor) you are done. If you have a third piece, it is easy to connect in to the masterpoint. The big figure 8 has 4 strands coming out of the top of the knot. 2 of them go to the pieces, and two of them are free. Just take one of the free strands and clove it to the third piece. With a little clove adjustment you can easily get the three pieces nicely equalized to the masterpoint (if you care about that).

Thanks JCM: my concern about redundancy was if I'm belaying up the 2nd with the masterpoint on a single rope, cloved to two pieces, and those 2 pieces both blew, the 2nd would get dropped. In the specific case both pieces were bomber so I wasn't overly worried, but in the off-chance none of the placements were great, it was more about using both ropes to control the master point.

I like your anchor solution, and will test all these recommendations.

ebmudder wrote:

Thanks JCM: my concern about redundancy was if I'm belaying up the 2nd with the masterpoint on a single rope, cloved to two pieces, and those 2 pieces both blew, the 2nd would get dropped. In the specific case both pieces were bomber so I wasn't overly worried, but in the off-chance none of the placements were great, it was more about using both ropes to control the master point.

I like your anchor solution, and will test all these recommendations.

Yes, that is a reasonable concern. If you can belay the second on all three pieces instead of just two, that is definitely better. And there are plenty of good ways to incorporate all three pieces, do if you can you should. The important thing is to have enough techniques in you bag of tricks to adapt to any situation. 

Overall, though, it is important to remember that, in the SERENE acronym, solid and redundant are the most important by far. If the gear is good, pretty much any method (within reason) of connecting them together will be OK. But some are better than others.