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How to increase friction on a quickdraw?

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 434
Chris Blatchley wrote:

skip or backclean the first bolt so that the belayer can fly higher.

That solves the colliding with the first draw problem, but it exacerbates the flying so high the climber ground falls problem.

chris b · · woodinville, wa · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 11
David Kerkeslager wrote:

That solves the colliding with the first draw problem, but it exacerbates the flying so high the climber ground falls problem.

if you're really that worried, it sounds like you should just get an ohm. I can't imagine any other way to only increase friction in one direction short of the 4-5 other methods that have been suggested

Duncan Domingue · · Nederland, CO (from Louisiana) · Joined May 2015 · Points: 10
Old lady H wrote:

Hey, this is one of the things I enjoy, your willingness to actually think about possibilities.

So? The Ohm has the whatever it is that acts only in a fall, but lets the rope move otherwise, right? That seems pretty tough to replicate with biners and hitches, something that only happens in a fall, but it's a good thought.

Something that does a half ass job as a belay device, letting rope slip, basically.

Sorry, but a bad belayer who lets rope run through the device does come to mind, lol!

Best, Helen

What you're describing is preloading the rope through a spare gri gri, then clipping that to the first bolt. Obviously, this is not ideal, but does what you're describing.

Serge S · · Seattle, WA · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 688
Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,375
David Kerkeslager wrote:

One hand on the brake strand, one hand on the stick clip!

But I'd have to stop petting the dog...put down my coffee cup...

Seriously. The belayers hand is under the device. The device should hit first. You definitely should worry about the first three or sometimes even four clips and actual ground fall. That's the time to pull out the stick clip, weight the rope to pull out some slack, and climb top roped for that first clip, maybe two, if you can get to it. Your belayer needs to be ready and paying attention too. 

There are tons of ways to work this out, if you work with your belayer. 

If the weight difference worries you that much, and you don't think your belayer can manage, the two of you aren't on the same team anymore. Big problem.

I'm the light belayer, and I've never been lifted enough to come close to a first bolt, but I'm only belaying leaders outside. Inside, I just grab a weight bag to clip on. They are light enough to haul around, but enough to not go up, or not as much. I use them with top ropes in one of the gyms, with no added friction on their anchors.

Belaying leaders, it's a case by case thing, with a lot of variables to consider, but it still isn't rocket science, just good belaying and teamwork with the climber.

Best, OLH

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,375
Serge Smirnov wrote:

I actually thought about the skinny rope, as I had to add a biner for friction to manage the thing, but it still wouldn't make the belayer not fly.

A second grigri, though? How would you get it unlocked? I'm curious now.

Best, H.

Serge S · · Seattle, WA · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 688

The idea was that the grigri on the first draw wouldn't lock easily - the rope is too thin for it to lock, unless accelerated very fast (in a fall).  But I haven't tried using it that way.

The device on the belayer wouldn't have to be a grigri.  But, since the rope is skinny, the belayer might want to increase the belay device's friction (e.g., using 2-3 biners or a munter hitch)

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525

What about just clipping an ATC to the first bolt? It would get the same 90 degree angles once loaded in a fall. Might give you a bit of drag, but that's the price you pay for not forking out the dough to get an Ohm.  

Bryce Adamson · · Connecticut · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 1,443

Why not just anchor the belayer down? No rope drag, and the belayer doesn't fly into the wall. Sure, it doesn't work for every scenario, but neither does an Ohm (an Ohm is only recommended for bolted routes, so no Gunks)

JonasMR · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 6
Bryce Adamson wrote:

Why not just anchor the belayer down? No rope drag, and the belayer doesn't fly into the wall. Sure, it doesn't work for every scenario, but neither does an Ohm (an Ohm is only recommended for bolted routes, so no Gunks)

Or build an anchor and belay off that.  The Ohm is a luxury: nice if you want it, but a new solution to an already solved problem.

Eric L · · Roseville, CA · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 145
Bryce Adamson wrote:

Why not just anchor the belayer down? No rope drag, and the belayer doesn't fly into the wall. Sure, it doesn't work for every scenario, but neither does an Ohm (an Ohm is only recommended for bolted routes, so no Gunks)

This. I’ve had my 75lb 13 y/o son belay me on lead, I was 185 at the time.  Just tied his harness to a boulder.  He didn’t have to catch me, but did lower me with no problems.

Austin Donisan · · San Mateo, CA · Joined May 2014 · Points: 674
David Kerkeslager wrote:

Hmm, I'm not sure I buy those physics--why does it being lower on the route mean the rope drag it causes for the leader would be any less?

The force of rope drag is proportional to the weight of the rope. Beneath the first clip there's only ~12' of rope that needs to be pulled up, whereas higher on the route there's much more rope weight.

Mark LaPierre · · spencer, MA · Joined May 2015 · Points: 70

why not just anchor the belayer?

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

Italian/Munter hitch.

Andrew Rice · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 11
Eric L wrote:

This. I’ve had my 75lb 13 y/o son belay me on lead, I was 185 at the time.  Just tied his harness to a boulder.  He didn’t have to catch me, but did lower me with no problems.

This. I've had my 11 year old daughter lead belay me tied off to a big boulder. She wasn't going to fly anywhere. 

Alternatively, what you're really trying to create is a "watermelon" like they have a some gyms. I suspect that a nice duffel or stuff sack with hearty straps could easily be filled with rocks and used as an anchor to even up the weight difference between you and your belayer.

Or you could just lose 50 lbs.

Eric Chabot · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 45

How many people on this thread have actually used an ohm? I demo'd one at a gym one time and don't plan to ever buy one.

Heavier climber here, I weigh ~190 lbs, and take a lot of lead falls on belayers who are lighter, sometimes significantly so. I hated the ohm. I got short roped by it on every clip unless I clipped super slow, and when I fell I got a hard catch. Basically it sucked. Maybe there are ways to mitigate these things if I practiced more with the device, but there are lots of things you can do to solve this problem, not involving expensive doodads or z-clipping or other BS.

What I do when I'm heavier than my belayer:

-communicate with your belayer about your needs on the route before you climb. Tell them where to keep you tight and where to keep you loose, where you plan to clip etc, which parts you think look hard for you, etc. 

-Stick clip as high as you can/need to. Sometimes I stick clip bolt 1, winch up, go in direct, and stick clip bolt 2 if I can't reach it from the ground. Maybe this 'negates' some of my sends but I'm not sponsored so who cares. If you're climbing on gear, place a lot in the first part of the climb and above ledges.

-make them use a gri-gri. No matter how good they are with a tube style device, some rope will slip, it just will. This will also make dogging back up to the bolt a lot easier. If you are trad as fuck this might offend you, so in that case stick with your good ol' hip belay.

-if you're concerned about a ground fall, tell them to give you minimal slack and to sit into the catch. If they are much lighter, they are not really capable of giving you a hard catch anyway, so this is OK. If they are JV, this means you will get short roped on some clips. Don't make hard clips over your head, call your clips, and accept the short-roping with grace as a consequence of climbing with an inexperienced and lighter belayer.

-if that's not enough, fill your rope bag or pack with rocks and clip it to their harness with a long sling. If the deck factor lessens as you get up the climb, they can unclip this after you are out of the deck zone to make their life a little easier.

-if that's not enough or seems like a pain, attach the belayer to a ground anchor by their belay loop with a bit of slack. This might harden the catch a bit but you can attach them with some slack, and a hard catch is better than decking anyway. This may be your best option if you're trad climbing and you can't stick clip.

-sometimes none of this is enough or might be hard to implement, and you have 2 choices: do not fall, or pick another route. Not all climbers get to climb all routes. Sometimes the shorties complain if a move is too reachy. We heavies get to complain if the crux is low. 

Good luck and stay safe! The great thing about climbing is that we all get to play the game our own way, and these are some of the things that I do to make it safe and fun.

Eric L · · Roseville, CA · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 145
Jim Titt wrote:

Italian/Munter hitch.

On the first draw?  Interesting...

amarius · · Nowhere, OK · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 20
Eric Chabot wrote:

How many people on this thread have actually used an ohm?

Heavier climber here, I weigh ~190 lbs, and take a lot of lead falls on belayers who are lighter, sometimes significantly so. I hated the ohm. I got short roped by it on every clip unless I clipped super slow, and when I fell I got a hard catch. 

Surprisingly, quite a few people use Ohm, and like it.
https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/111580396/edelrid-ohm

dino74 · · Oceanside, CA · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 70
Eric Chabot wrote:

Heavier climber here, I weigh ~190 lbs, and take a lot of lead falls on belayers who are lighter, sometimes significantly so. I hated the ohm. I got short roped by it on every clip unless I clipped super slow, and when I fell I got a hard catch. Basically it sucked. 

The diameter of the rope effects the Ohm performance. I first tried it on 10.2 Metolius Gym rope and got effect as described above. Since then, I've switched to a 9.7 Lightning Pro and it performed fantastically. 

Mark Berenblum · · Gardiner, NY · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 105
amarius wrote:

Surprisingly, quite a few people use Ohm, and like it.
https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/111580396/edelrid-ohm

Anything you do to produce friction between the belayer and the climber (you) will shorten the effective length of rope in the system, increasing the fall factor and making for a harder landing. If you added friction at the first bolt and you're high on the route, there's enough rope out to have a low fall factor anyway. If you're just above that first bolt and fall, you're going to have a hard fall. With something like a grigri at the first bolt that locks up 100%, you're talking about a real factor-2 fall. I'm sure whatever you use will let some rope out, so you won't get to a factor-2, but I think there are better, tried-and-true ways to solve this problem...

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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