WTF is fourth class, and how/should you protect it?

If it isn't suitable for soloing, then its a climb and should be protected the way any climb would be.  In an ideal world, the tricky moves on traverses get a piece before the move for the leader and a piece after the move for the second.  One of the sure signs of leader incompetence is failing to place protection for the second.  If communication is possible, the second should not be shy about demanding protection if the leader isn't providing it (and it is possible to get some).

On some types of easy terrain, the leader can just pass behind features that will act as protection points.  The most obvious such things are sturdy trees.

If the traversing begins from the belay stance, then the belayer's anchor has to be built to resist a lateral load as well as a downward load.  Belay devices work the same way as for upward and downward loads.

The definition of 4th class to 5th based on fall danger is useless to me.

If you fall off a 5 story flat roof to your death, you were not climbing 5th class.

To me 5th starts when their are climbing moves.  Edging, smearing, jaming, etc.. and/or perhaps a need for sequence.  No one would call climbing a ladder 5th class, even if it is dead vertical.  If every move is left, right with positive holds for each move, you are not at 5th class yet.  If an alternative rating system to the Yosemite system caught on in the US, I would jump on board.  I think the V-scale could be adopted by going backwards from V0 with V.9, V.8 etc and then add a "seriousness" rating similar to the UK.

You definitely want to protect traverses that you or your follower may not be comfortable on. All belay devices should work just fine. 

On a similar note, have you tried finding a person or group that you can consistently climb with? This is an alarmingly basic question to be asking in the context of leading a climb. I'd be worried that if you are asking the internet questions like this, your protection placement and even your belay technique may just be really sketchy in general. 

You've mentioned on the forum that you are in your 60s and just recently started climbing. Taking a ground fall could easily mean a significant life altering injury for a person in your situation. Be safe out there!! 

Chris C. wrote:

This is an alarmingly basic question to be asking in the context of leading a climb. I'd be worried that if you are asking the internet questions like this, your protection placement and even your belay technique may just be really sketchy in general. 

You've mentioned on the forum that you are in your 60s and just recently started climbing. Taking a ground fall could easily mean a significant life altering injury for a person in your situation. Be safe out there!! 

One of the differences between OLH and untold numbers of other novices is that she asks the "alarmingly basic" questions they don't, which means they are likely to commit a host of "alarmingly basic" errors that she won't.

It is also surprising to learn that groundfalls are bad for 60 year-olds.  I didn't  think groundfalls were any kind of problem until you got to be 70.

rgold wrote:

One of the differences between OLH and untold numbers of other novices is that she asks the "alarmingly basic" questions they don't, which means they are likely to commit a host of "alarmingly basic" errors that she won't.

It is also surprising to learn that groundfalls are bad for 60 year-olds.  I didn't  think groundfalls were any kind of problem until you got to be 70.

Facts regarding average Americans 65 years old and greater:

•Individuals who have a hip fracture are 5 to 20 percent more likely to die in the first year following that injury than others in this age group.
•For those living independently before a hip fracture, 15 to 25 percent will still be in long-term care institutions a year after their fracture.

While this probably does not apply to many of the people in this age range on MP as they have been climbing for the significant majority of their lives, this very well may apply to Helen as she claims to have just got into the sport. Lots of people get into this sport and forget how breakable the human body is. I took a fall early on in my climbing career that impacted my life greatly. I know what it's like to get hurt and I don't want that to happen to others.

You may have taken what I said as abrasive. But the reality of the situation is that this really is a dangerously basic question for a person leading a trad climb. 

*4th class scramble.

rgold wrote:

 It is also surprising to learn that groundfalls are bad for 60 year-olds.  I didn't  think groundfalls were any kind of problem until you got to be 70.

Ground falls are bad at any age ;) 

That was an attempt a humor John...

rgold wrote:

That was an attempt a humor John...

I got it......just couldn't resist ;)

Chris C. wrote:

Facts regarding average Americans 65 years old and greater:

•Individuals who have a hip fracture are 5 to 20 percent more likely to die in the first year following that injury than others in this age group.
•For those living independently before a hip fracture, 15 to 25 percent will still be in long-term care institutions a year after their fracture.

While this probably does not apply to many of the people in this age range on MP as they have been climbing for the significant majority of their lives, this very well may apply to Helen as she claims to have just got into the sport. Lots of people get into this sport and forget how breakable the human body is. I took a fall early on in my climbing career that impacted my life greatly. I know what it's like to get hurt and I don't want that to happen to others.

You may have taken what I said as abrasive. But the reality of the situation is that this really is a dangerously basic question for a person leading a trad climb. 

Rgold is being a gentleman.

Lecturing older people on the great risks they face by being older is arrogant and condescending. 

I am not leading trad. I am asking questions.

What is "dangerously basic" here, the confusion that is all over these forums about what constitutes 3-5th class?

Or asking about "4th" class approaches, hoping for some simple Alpine rope tricks, not usually part of single pitch sport cragging?

Or asking, after reading, following and understanding the many threads regarding FF2 falls at anchors, AND knowing that the brake action on an ATC suddenly changes from down to up? 

Maybe not such a stupid question, to ask what happens when a belay device is halfway in between, at horizontal?

I'm confident you mean well, and I'm also confident you will not be the first nor last to assume too much.

And, besides, this is the beginner forum. My assumption is, if it is posted here, MP has the opportunity to be useful.

Usually they come through.

Best, Helen

John Barritt wrote:

I got it......just couldn't resist ;)

Well, you are Captain Obvious sometimes!   

My suggestion is to find an experienced mentor and work with he/she in the field on the type of terrain that you are concerned about.  This would give you the opportunity to watch/question/learn.  If a mentor is not available, my second recommendation would be to work with a guide for a day.  Yes, expensive but with a qualified guide you will learn very quickly.

I'm with RGold on this one... If it's a scrambing approach and you're on a ridge or some other kind of horizontal- like feature... Rope up to your partner (the correct length for what you're doing) and simul-climb, constantly weave through the rocks and/or trees, whatever kind of natural protection is available. Just make sure you have a piece of natural pro in between you and your partner as much as possible.Or you can do like the guys in the alps do, wrap a few coils and if someone goes off the edge, you go off the other edge... I wouldn't do that, but you get what I'm saying. 

Old lady H wrote:

What is "dangerously basic" here, the confusion that is all over these forums about what constitutes 3-5th class

Way to go Helen, climbing expression is getting overcomplicated with too many rating sytems, criss crossed meanings and changing definitions.

Here's the old school definition; 3rd equals walking on steep trail. 4th equals scrambling occasional use of hands no ropes required. 5th equals actual climbing, use of hands, rope required as difficulty increases.

True 4th class ledges shouldn't require a rope unless it's borderline 5th or has something high risk about it. If it's on a route you protect it as others have said above assuming a fall unlikely.

I like your questions FWIW, JB

Old lady H wrote:

What is "dangerously basic" here, the confusion that is all over these forums about what constitutes 3-5th class?

I was referring to your original post asking if a protection and a belay device works on horizontal terrain. Regarding scrambling, I ascribe to the philosophy of - numbers don't matter and if you're uncomfortable, protect it. 

And I apologize that I am the only person here to express concern about your safety! 

Chris C. wrote:

I was referring to your original post asking if a protection and a belay device works on horizontal terrain. Regarding scrambling, I ascribe to the philosophy of - numbers don't matter and if you're uncomfortable, protect it. 

And I apologize that I am the only person here to express concern about your safety! 

We're good, Chris, you just got both barrels based on the general idea of the thing.

Just FYI, though? In general, the person who IS older, a refugee, college age, whatever, usually grasps those difficulties much better than the concerned outsider. It will serve you well to think of that before the lecture.

I'm totally confident there's stuff you have to deal with, that I can sympathize with, but have no direct experience in. 

Caring is never out of line, by the way.

Best, Helen

John Barritt wrote:

Way to go Helen, climbing expression is getting overcomplicated with too many rating sytems, criss crossed meanings and changing definitions.

Here's the old school definition; 3rd equals walking on steep trail. 4th equals scrambling occasional use of hands no ropes required. 5th equals actual climbing, use of hands, rope required as difficulty increases.

True 4th class ledges shouldn't require a rope unless it's borderline 5th or has something high risk about it. If it's on a route you protect it as others have said above assuming a fall unlikely.

I like your questions FWIW, JB

 That may have been true a while back, but I don't think anyone should show up to "class 4" or even class 3 scramble and expect to only occasionally use your hands. Pretty much every "class 2" scramble I've been on, you need to occasionally use your hands, going by the guide books, I've done a few "class 2" scrambles in NC and Virginia that definitely have some "no-fall" zones. It's way too subjective. Every "4th class" scramble I've been on, by the guidebooks, have all had serious fall-potential, some with a fifth class move or two crammed in there. There's been quite a few times I've been on 4th class rock and have wanted a rope or something, sometimes more so than on 5.whatever climbs. A lot of accidents happen on 3rd and 4th class terrain due to these differences in opinion. Always best to go by what feels right to you and have some equipment with you in case the needs arise.

John Barritt wrote:
Way to go Helen, climbing expression is getting overcomplicated with too many rating sytems, criss crossed meanings and changing definitions.

Here's the old school definition; 3rd equals walking on steep trail. 4th equals scrambling occasional use of hands no ropes required. 5th equals actual climbing, use of hands, rope required as difficulty increases.

True 4th class ledges shouldn't require a rope unless it's borderline 5th or has something high risk about it. If it's on a route you protect it as others have said above assuming a fall unlikely.

I like your questions FWIW, JB
 That may have been true a while back, but I don't think anyone should show up to "class 4" or even class 3 scramble and expect to only occasionally use your hands. Pretty much every "class 2" scramble I've been on, you need to occasionally use your hands, going by the guide books, I've done a few "class 2" scrambles in NC and Virginia that definitely have some "no-fall" zones. It's way too subjective. Every "4th class" scramble I've been on, by the guidebooks, have all had serious fall-potential, some with a fifth class move or two crammed in there. There's been quite a few times I've been on 4th class rock and have wanted a rope or something, sometimes more so than on 5.whatever climbs. A lot of accidents happen on 3rd and 4th class terrain due to these differences in opinion. Always best to go by what feels right to you and have some equipment with you in case the needs arise.

According to the ASCA, the original definition is (more or less):

1st class: hiking

2nd class: scrambling

3rd class: easy but exposed scrambling, falls may be fatal

4th class: harder scrambling, falls may be fatal

5th class: real rock climbing (again, falls may be fatal if intermediate protection is not used)

These distinctions were created before modern climbing gear. How they relate today is open to interpretation, and there is no consensus for every place or guidebook.

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