Homemade Prototype Nuts

Kristoffer wrote:If your swager is calibrated correctly and all swages pass with a go nogo gauge, you really dont need to test till destruction.

I know nothing about this subject and I could be completely off base but after reading through this tread I remember a post from Russ Walling (who has been making big wall gear commercially forever) on a thread about swaged copperheads

Just an FYI: That gauge, even though it came with the tool, is NOT going to guarantee the integrity of the swage. Using only the gauge to ensure absolute strength is NOT adequate.

There are too many factors for a simple go/nogo test. The Nicopress brand sleeves will have a slightly different wall thickness than say a generic sleeve. Cable will vary in diameter ever so slightly and throw off your go/nogo results. Even flex in the tool will cause variance in the heads when going from large crimps to small crimps.

You MUST perform breaking tests to make sure the swaged cable is obtaining absolute strength. Getting breaking strength numbers does not matter, but being absolutely sure the bond is good is paramount.


Food for thought. Carry on.

Joe Lange wrote: Also, the thought of Dyneema had not even entered my mind. What are the downsides of it? Durability on rocks? I cant seem to find any other than that.

Would suck to place for tricky "threading" placements, almost all your placements would need a nut tool to take out, bulkier (on the biner and in a tight placement), limited age of use.

1/8 dyneema single braid has a rated breaking strength of 2,800 lbs, galvanized 1/8 inch cable has a rate breaking strengthen of 2,000 lbs.
they both are about the same size, the dyneems tends to be a bit thicker until under load.

to splice dyneema indeed requires specialize equipment, its called a fid. just like swagging cable requires specialized equipment.

if you are trying to combat the floppy nature of the dyneema add a stiffener to it, check out those ultra lightweight BD cams, they have dyneema stems.

I have been making and using dyneema stemmed Al and Cu heads for alpine big walls, they end up being a massive reduction in weight because I am able to reduce the amount of Al of Cu sleeves to one (the actual head that gets pasted) and use a splice in the place of the lower swage. to stiffen them I insert a piece of spring wire inside of the dyneema during the manufacturing process. (they are a bitch to make, but every gram counts in those situations).

I dont doubt that there are variations in oval cable sleeves. my statement in regards to using a go nogo came from how its done in the aviation sector, and cheep off brand stuff is simply not used. none the less, destroy some stuff for peace of mind. its always better to error on the side of safety.

I have a Nico Press swager and I can only use Al and Cu sleeves with it, most stoppers/nuts you buy have stainless steel swages, and that requires a different jaw on the press or a completely different tool.

I wanted to point out how cool it is that the tone of the climbing community has changed in regards to people prototyping equipment, 10 years ago you would have been met with resistance asking such things on climbing forums. all you people who have chimed in are nothing less than awesome.

Kristoffer wrote:I wanted to point out how cool it is that the tone of the climbing community has changed in regards to people prototyping equipment, 10 years ago you would have been met with resistance asking such things on climbing forums. all you people who have chimed in are nothing less than awesome.

Not even 10 years, I can recall several pages of such resistance only 2 or 3 years ago. It really is awesome that people have the creativity and ingenuity for this kind of stuff. In an environment that promotes creativity and ingenuity, it's only a matter of time before somebody has an idea that makes totems seem like forged friends.

Question:
Do you think the spliced dyneema could be useful for micro-nuts such as #1-#4 stoppers to replace the weaker cable? Do you think that this would change to point of failure to the actual chock, and if so how much more force could they take?

Kristoffer wrote:1/8 dyneema single braid has a rated breaking strength of 2,800 lbs, galvanized 1/8 inch cable has a rate breaking strengthen of 2,000 lbs. they both are about the same size, the dyneems tends to be a bit thicker until under load. to splice dyneema indeed requires specialize equipment, its called a fid. just like swagging cable requires specialized equipment. if you are trying to combat the floppy nature of the dyneema add a stiffener to it, check out those ultra lightweight BD cams, they have dyneema stems. I have been making and using dyneema stemmed Al and Cu heads for alpine big walls, they end up being a massive reduction in weight because I am able to reduce the amount of Al of Cu sleeves to one (the actual head that gets pasted) and use a splice in the place of the lower swage. to stiffen them I insert a piece of spring wire inside of the dyneema during the manufacturing process. (they are a bitch to make, but every gram counts in those situations). I dont doubt that there are variations in oval cable sleeves. my statement in regards to using a go nogo came from how its done in the aviation sector, and cheep off brand stuff is simply not used. none the less, destroy some stuff for peace of mind. its always better to error on the side of safety. I have a Nico Press swager and I can only use Al and Cu sleeves with it, most stoppers/nuts you buy have stainless steel swages, and that requires a different jaw on the press or a completely different tool. I wanted to point out how cool it is that the tone of the climbing community has changed in regards to people prototyping equipment, 10 years ago you would have been met with resistance asking such things on climbing forums. all you people who have chimed in are nothing less than awesome.

Post up some photos of those bad boys!

Kristoffer wrote:1 I wanted to point out how cool it is that the tone of the climbing community has changed in regards to people prototyping equipment, 10 years ago you would have been met with resistance asking such things on climbing forums. all you people who have chimed in are nothing less than awesome.

Climbers tinkering with and modifying gear is really more the norm in the long term. BITD when I started it was pretty common to mess about in the workshop. And of course we didn't have the Internet to get flamed in, so the final verdict was rendered where it should be: on the cliff. Hell, my first aid lead was 100% on wooden pieces I made myself. 1977 I think.

It's the Internet that has changed the way we perceive this. Lots of new-to-climbing folks who equate the latest, shiniest gear with competency, and of course modifying gear is antithetical to this. Frankly I'm a bit surprised that MtnProj seems to have matured to the point where "YGD" and ridicule is no longer the overwhelming response to this discussion. I suspect though that we are still somewhere between hoary old Supertopo and newbie-rich Reddit/climbing when it comes to our demographics.

Anyway... it's all good as long as we're happy climbing. Peace out.

No I do not think that dyneema would be suitable for micro nuts. just like really thin steel cable, small diameter dyneems would remain in the body weight only realm. To add insult to injury thin dyneema single braid would without a doubt suffer greater from abrasion than its steel counterpart.
I dont have any experience in regards to ultra thin dyneema for climbing gear, but I have used it extensively on speedwing and paragliding rigging and I can assure you that when things get thin, preforming a locking splice is no longer feasible. In these situations a method called finger trapping is used to make the joint and then locked with external stitches, its plenty strong, but I just don't have the confidence in finger trapping for climbing gear applications at this time.

here is a photo of a spliced dyneema aluminum head

^SICK

Now that's just bitchin!

Aid gear doesn't count. Those people will hang on drywall screws.

Kristoffer wrote: to splice dyneema indeed requires specialize equipment, its called a fid. just like swagging cable requires specialized equipment. ... to stiffen them I insert a piece of spring wire inside of the dyneema during the manufacturing process. (they are a bitch to make, but every gram counts in those situations).

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

Can you tell us more about this "fid"? Do you have a picture of one, and how much it costs? Can it be used to splice nylon too?

To stiffen, it seems like using shrink-wrap tubing would be relatively easy. Have you tried that? They have it in clear, if one wanted to see the underlying cord.

Jon Nelson wrote:To stiffen, it seems like using shrink-wrap tubing would be relatively easy. Have you tried that? They have it in clear, if one wanted to see the underlying cord.

Interesting idea. That would probably protect the dyneema from abrasion. Any chance shrink wrap provides any UV protection?

Shrink wrap may indeed work fine for stiffening, as would some other outer sheathing material. if you look at the black diamond ultralight cams you will notice they used an external stiffener over the dyneema. (some type of plastic).

Dyneema is quite compatible with other substances such as epoxies, so impregnating it is an option (doing so may negate the weight savings?) If that avenue was taken I believe the challenge here would be finding the correct resin that gives you both stiffness and enough flexibility so you don't get kinks.

In regards to UV protection, some dyneema comes with a urethane coating to provide both UV and additional abrasion resistance. this urethane coating is also what is used to give dyneema color.

Fids are nothing more than a metal tube with a point on one end used to weave and bury the line within its self. they are quite cheap and can also be made easily in your shop. splicing is something that should not be taken lightly, done incorrectly you will end up with something very very dangerous. that being said, the knots we regularly use in climbing are the same way, tied improperly and they too are deadly. *** the big difference here is knots are easily inspected, splices are not. ***
The benefits of splices are sleekness and strength.

Yes, Nylon can be spliced. there are many types of splices used for different line constructions regardless of the fiber material. some types of splices are mind bending to preform.

I am going to step into a radical thought now. how about using exotic composites as the heads for the nut? there were some plastic stoppers/nuts being made quite some time ago, but they never caught on. two advantages I can immediately think of are weight reduction and better "bite".

Politically Correct Ball wrote:...but new-school climbers already shun the nuts I have on my rack as it is. What you should really do is make a better tricam, like small sizes which can take bigger whips and are easier to remove.

I would love to see a new type of tricam that has a stiff cable on them instead of webbing. Maybe 2 wires with plastic around them so they work like the new stiff webbing but since it is wires they are going to be less prone to damage.

I would be interested in the plastic nuts, it would very much depend on the plastic. There have been several advances in polymers such that I'm sure there is a plastic that would hold up to the strength requirements (I'm not sure what plastic was used in the ones mentioned above or what their rating was, but I do remember seeing pictures), I'm not sure which plastic that would be though.

And with splicing you do keep nearly 100% the strength of the cord/webbing, but the strongest splice is going to depend on the specific braid. If I were doing it I would start with cheaper larger material that uses the same braid to practice, scrapping a bunch of dyneema from botched splices (again, with the braided stuff rather than twisted ropes gets quite complex and easy to make a mistake) could get expensive very quickly.

Also note, two braids might look similar but can be very different and not all braids lend well to splicing, I'm not aware of a splice for the braid used to make deyneema slings.

Also, try looking into cord/rope used for sailing. It may be easier to find high strength cord marketed to them rather than things that are marketed to climbers. I had seen some made by Samson I believe that went down to 1/8 inch and rated to 4000lbs (If I am remembering correctly).

A source for wire and swages is apsltd.com. There is a large variety of multistrand wire available in stainless, mostly 316 since its marine application. There are also a variety of swage and swageless wire fittings used in sailing applications. There is a tradeoff between stiffness and strength, with dyform (very stiff and very strong) at one end of the spectrum, and as folks here have pointed out dyneema (soft and less strong) at the other end. There are lots of other fibers like ultra high molecular weight dyneema and vectran each with advantages and disadvantages.

I use eye spliced dyneema and vectran for climbing. They are lightweight, strong and make great equalizers and masterpoints at anchors. You can increase both the strength and stiffness by coring dyneema with either dyneema or vectran, or add an external sheath (cover) at wear points.

I use loop fids instead of hollow. Think big sewing needle. I make the fids out of coat hanger with soldered loop, or you can use a strand off a wire rope. I've made eyesplices out of dyneema down to 1/16" for sailing applications, but for climbing I don't use dyneema or vectran smaller than 3/16" (5mm) because of abrasion. I have used adjustable splices ("finger trapping" as Kristoffer said)but Im nervous since I haven't seen any strength tests. I've never had a splice fail, but I have had knots fail in sailing applications.

This thread is awesome, i quickly looked up about splicing and have to ask, wtf are we doing with our cordelletes? I have found some 4mm dyneema cord made for splicing that's good for 2,300KG now correct me if i'm wrong but that's about 23kn. I need to get some of this stuff.

ViperScale wrote: I would love to see a new type of tricam that has a stiff cable on them instead of webbing. Maybe 2 wires with plastic around them so they work like the new stiff webbing but since it is wires they are going to be less prone to damage.

Climbed with a friend's wired tricams and didn't like them. felt way way more like they were going to walk than my CAMP ones.

Rob D. wrote: Climbed with a friend's wired tricams and didn't like them. felt way way more like they were going to walk than my CAMP ones.

I'd have to agree. One often overlooked benefit of using tricams in horizontals over SLCDs is that the webbing is flexible. A stiff wire loaded over an edge has a good chance of getting kinked, while flexible webbing justs bends over the edge. Of course, on razor sharp edges abrasion might be an issue, but I tape over my tricam slings anyways to prevent abrasion to the sling. I'd rather have a few fuzzies than a kinked cam.

ViperScale wrote: I would love to see a new type of tricam that has a stiff cable on them instead of webbing. Maybe 2 wires with plastic around them so they work like the new stiff webbing but since it is wires they are going to be less prone to damage.

They are not Camp Tricams, but have you seen Rock Empire Abalak which are very similar?

mountainproject.com/v/rock-…