Extending Top Rope anchors


Original Post
Nick0001 · · Tucson, Az · Joined Dec 2015 · Points: 0

So I was wondering about extending my top rope master point with something like a 20ft piece of webbing or 7mm cord. So for example, if I have a cordolette anchor and I need to get another 4 or 5 feet extension to be over the lip of the rock, can I just basically use a big piece of webbing tied in a water knot and clipped onto my master point like I would a sling? Can I use cord in the same way?

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 1,865

You can use either webbing or cord (7mm being on the small end of what most folks would use). If you do that as one long loop, however, realize there is not redundancy at that point i.e. cut the loop at any point and BING - no anchor. There are ways to make two redundant strands going over the edge, but that's not the sort of thing I describe online. "Seek qualified instruction".

Nick0001 · · Tucson, Az · Joined Dec 2015 · Points: 0

Hey thanks for the reply, yea I would not use it as one single loop. From what I understand I would need at least two locking biners on my master point and I would clip my webbing or cord into those, then basically make a long version of what you would do on a bolted top rope setup with a sling or cord, tying into an overhand or sliding X. Does that sound right or should I just get off the internet.

Alex CV · · Greater NYC area · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 50

There would still be no redundancy in what you describe for the cord or webbing itself. You would need two independent loops in your extension. I'd also recommend padding the edge to protect the webbing or cord from abrading or being cut.

Alex

DesertRat · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 193

This is an excellent book that would answer all of your questions and more. I highly recommend it.

http://www.amazon.com/Toproping-How-To-Climb-Series/dp/0762770325

eli poss · · Durango, Co · Joined May 2014 · Points: 136

Get one big loop of webbing or cord and loop it through the original master point. Pull both loops until they are even and tie an overhand/fig 8 to create a new master point.

Edit: Here are some pictures

Step 1

Extending Master point over an edge 1

Step 2

Extending Master point over an edge 2

Eli Helmuth · · Ciales, PR · Joined Aug 2001 · Points: 1,201
turd furgeson wrote:eli knows his shit. while i am a big fan of the sliding x, its really pretty irrelevant if you have two bolts clipped. always remember, redundancy is what keeps us climbers alive.
Sorry, different Eli here and redundancy isn't always key (1 rope/belayer/harness/belay device/locker) but in this instance of TR anchoring I absolutely agree! Cheers.
Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 115
eli poss wrote:Get one big loop of webbing or cord and loop it through the original master point. Pull both loops until they are even and tie an overhand/fig 8 to create a new master point. Edit: Here are some pictures Step 1 Step 2
Bad idea here. Not as bad as rapping with the rope going through a sling and then pulling it, but if you must use a second sling to extend a top rope anchor, use a girth hitch or 2 biners, preferably locking.

The problem with eli's set up is that with an extended piece of webbing run through a loop can create a sawing effect, especially when TRing, hanging, and lowering. Knotting them together will stop the sawing motion.
eli poss · · Durango, Co · Joined May 2014 · Points: 136
Pete Spri wrote: Bad idea here. Not as bad as rapping with the rope going through a sling and then pulling it, but if you must use a second sling to extend a top rope anchor, use a girth hitch or 2 biners, preferably locking. The problem with eli's set up is that with an extended piece of webbing run through a loop can create a sawing effect, especially when TRing, hanging, and lowering. Knotting them together will stop the sawing motion.
see the 2nd picture. With the knotted final product no sawing action will occur and you will have fewer links in the chain that could fail and you don't have to worry about lockers being loaded over a protrusion if the terrain isn't perfectly flat.
Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 115
eli poss wrote: see the 2nd picture. With the knotted final product no sawing action will occur and you will have fewer links in the chain that could fail and you don't have to worry about lockers being loaded over a protrusion if the terrain isn't perfectly flat.
In your picture, you have two knotted loops, both of which are fixed loops through each other and free to rotate.
rocknice2 · · Montreal, Quebec · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 2,958
Pete Spri wrote: In your picture, you have two knotted loops, both of which are fixed loops through each other and free to rotate.
They aren't free to rotate once load is applied to the system.
Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 115
rocknice2 wrote: They aren't free to rotate once load is applied to the system.
They absolutely are and will with the climbers motion(no, not a full 90 degrees, but plenty to rub and cut each other), especially when TRing, and especially since that set up has no equalizing in it.

In fact, it would be better to simply extend both of those dbl length slings one through each anchor and clip the TR through the other biners. You have only unnecessarily complicated and weakened the system with this set up.
rocknice2 · · Montreal, Quebec · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 2,958
Pete Spri wrote: They absolutely are and will with the climbers motion(no, not a full 90 degrees, but plenty to rub and cut each other), especially when TRing, and especially since that set up has no equalizing in it. In fact, it would be better to simply extend both of those dbl length slings one through each anchor and clip the TR through the other biners. You have only unnecessarily complicated and weakened the system with this set up.
So you think that equalizing it with a sliding-x would help?

Your right that 2 long independent slings would be ideal.
Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 115
rocknice2 wrote: So you think that equalizing it with a sliding-x would help? Your right that 2 long independent slings would be ideal.
I don't know how you would set up an equalizing system in pic 2 without intermediate biners.

I really try to avoid anchors I series like that, parallel is the way to go except with some weird terrain.

Not trying to be a jerk, its just that webbing on webbing especially in loading scenarios is not a good idea. And top roping beginners will have lots of that.

I think of rapping through webbing and pulling the rope.

I think of belay loops that go unchecked too long (RIP Todd Skinner). It's just better for the health of your slings in general.

And though I don't like biner chains either, I would take two lockers between those slings I pic 2 over the webbing on webbing any day.
Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 115

Dbl post

eli poss · · Durango, Co · Joined May 2014 · Points: 136
rocknice2 wrote: They aren't free to rotate once load is applied to the system.
This. Even if the load is applied off-axis the sling will not move because, as you mentioned the loops are fixed.
alpinejason · · Minneapolis · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 0

get a longer cordelette. don't add complication.

Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 115
eli poss wrote: This. Even if the load is applied off-axis the sling will not move because, as you mentioned the loops are fixed.
The loops are fixed loops, but not fixed to each other. You are missing how little motion you need between two pieces of webbing to get them rubbing. If you had girth hitched them or even square knotted them in your pic it would eliminate that, but you didn't and have loops that rotate on each other. It's not a refined set up and there are better ways to teach a beginner.
Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 115
alpinejason wrote:get a longer cordelette. don't add complication.
This is probably the best answer.

One other thing that I would recommend as a beginner is if you have a group bigger than 2, sit up at the top by your anchor and watch them as someone climbs the full route and then lowers. Try this with a couple of anchor set ups to understand their strengths and weaknesses. You will learn a lot just by observing.
wing thing · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 55
eli poss wrote:Get one big loop of webbing or cord and loop it through the original master point. Pull both loops until they are even and tie an overhand/fig 8 to create a new master point. Edit: Here are some pictures Step 1 Step 2
You should avoid connecting slings directly to other slings or cord. If you want to join two slings together, use a carabiner to connect the two slings as it's stronger. Mammut has reported that slings that are girth hitched together have been reported to have a decrease in strength by as much as 50 percent.

Black Diamond also posted a QC lab demonstrating the problems with girth hitching slings.
Jonathan Cunha · · Bolinas, CA · Joined May 2014 · Points: 0

"get a longer cordelette. don't add complication."

X 2

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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