How To Get Asked Out on a Second Date

Señor Arroz wrote:

The presumption of this entire thread is that the 2nd is a rank beginner. I love me some good clove hitches but given the life-or-death consequences of doing one wrong I'm actually really happy for any beginners I'm climbing with to use a PAS. In fact, I insist on it. They've got enough to think about already.

Yeah, I made my comment with the assumption we were including rank beginners (though I usually teach them basic skills on the ground first, always a good idea).  Even rank beginners can easily tie a clove hitch the way I described.  I have taught 100's how to do it (as well as many experienced leaders who are surprised they never learned such an easy skill before).
Since I am standing next to these beginners while they are tying the knot and the anchor is usually right at eye level I can make sure they do it right.  It's also takes about 5 min to teach them how to tie it while on the ground.   .  

Try it.  I bet you'll like it.  

I’m not so sure this thread IS about rank beginners . 2 years ago, the OP specifically mentioned people hoping to transition into trad multipitch. The word transition points to some previous experience.

Yup, but never mind...

simplyput . wrote: I’m not so sure this thread IS about rank beginners . 2 years ago, the OP specifically mentioned people hoping to transition into trad multipitch. The word transition points to some previous experience.

Well, it IS in the "Beginning Climbers" section.

Sure, but reading the post, as opposed to focusing on it’s storage area is a much better way to evaluate what the post is actually discussing.
But I agree with Mr. Gold: never mind.

Buy the beer food and drinks 

Señor Arroz wrote:

The presumption of this entire thread is that the 2nd is a rank beginner. I love me some good clove hitches but given the life-or-death consequences of doing one wrong I'm actually really happy for any beginners I'm climbing with to use a PAS. In fact, I insist on it. They've got enough to think about already. 

I've introduced plenty of partners to their first multi-pitch (in some cases first trad) climbs. I always teach them to tie in to the anchor with a clove hitch, and if they're a sport climber I try to break their habit of using a PAS. In fact, I insist on it. I don't expect them to remember how to tie the knot at first, it's fine if they don't since I can easily inspect it or even re-tie it for them. But it's a very good habit to get into. A clove hitch is safer and more efficient on multi-pitch. 

Now when preparing to rappel, and during rappel transitions, obviously something other than the rope is needed as a tether, and I think a PAS is a great option for this (and I provide a spare one to beginning partners). There are other options of course, and I don't want to start a PAS war either. But a clove hitch is something everyone doing multi-pitch should learn, the sooner the better.

I think this has been said, but one way to NOT get asked out again is when after a climb, you hand your leader a rat's nest of slings and gear all tangled and knotted together, slings dangling and snagging, so badly that you curse their carelessness and ineptitude as you struggle to de-tangle and sort it all out. Sometimes this happens after the last climb of the day, and I don't realize how bad it is until days later (when I'm sorting out my gear the night before another climbing trip), and it's never pleasant..

First timers get a pass, especially if they're really new and were scared during the climb. It can take a few times out to learn to clean efficiently. But if it's their second time out, and they didn't even make an effort to shorten the draws and keep the gear neat, that is not okay.. Rat's nests of gear wast time and damage equipment

Dan Africk wrote: I think this has been said, but one way to NOT get asked out again is when after a climb, you hand your leader a rat's nest of slings and gear all tangled and knotted together, slings dangling and snagging, so badly that you curse their carelessness and ineptitude as you struggle to de-tangle and sort it all out. Sometimes this happens after the last climb of the day, and I don't realize how bad it is until days later (when I'm sorting out my gear the night before another climbing trip), and it's never pleasant..

First timers get a pass, especially if they're really new and were scared during the climb. It can take a few times out to learn to clean efficiently. But if it's their second time out, and they didn't even make an effort to shorten the draws and keep the gear neat, that is not okay.. Rat's nests of gear wast time and damage equipment

Haha Dan, this kind of experience is what made me write the opening post.  And the people I was climbing with weren't brand new either, they had indoor and outdoor sport climbing experience but were clueless about handling gear (you didn't mention dropping stuff, by the way).   They also stood around uselessly at various times when they could have been helping things move foreward.   I wrote with that type of climber in mind (and said so: "It is addressed to people transitioning to multipitch trad climbing who have found a willing leader").

Hello Fellow climbers.

After nearly 3 decades of climbing, the partners I was most impressed with and was eager to climb with were:

1. Safety oriented: People who have their own and their partner's safety in mind.

2. Willing to learn: If you don't know, ask. Accept feedback regarding your techniques (anchor set up, belay position, gear placement quality, etc). Be willing to change your habits to accommodate your partner. I recall climbing ice with a partner who kept complaining that my carabiners were too small for his big, gloved paws. Next time we climbed ice together, I brought bigger biners (and did not protest the additional weight penalty...)
In the nineties, when I learned to climb, I served a long "apprenticeship". When I transitioned to leading, I often asked: "what did you think of my gear placement?" and was willing to accept criticism. Try to do that: you'll learn quicker.

3. Honest: If you are scared to lead a pitch, say so. If it is above your "pay grade", there is no shame in backing down. If you don't have the gear, say so. If you don't know what gear to bring, or unsure of what to bring, ask. Most experienced climbers have plenty of extra stuff to lend you. it is better than showing up with a junk show...

4. Fun. Climbing is meant to be fun (albeit, type 3 fun at times). Keep it that way. Your climbing ability has nothing to do with your value as a human being. I was always on edge around climbers who tied their sense of self worth with their grade. (recall, you would continue to improve as you practice over months and years)

5. Good conversationists. They are hard to find: I had the pleasure of climbing with very interesting people: devout christians, strict buddhists, physicians, philosophers, carpenters, ex-stripper and professional "dirt bags"...
I always appreciated a person who can talk about something other than the "hard sequence in my last super-awesome send..." It made the climbing experience deeper and had enriched me.

6. Adventurous. As you progress, you will have adventures: bad weather, runouts, bails, climbing scared etc. Remember that it is an adventure and approach adversity as such. (you'd make a better tent-mate, portaledge buddy or a sufferfest bivy partner.) this is the stuff you'd remember the most years later.

I have to admit, however, that in 27 years of climbing, I have not carried a PAS, and somehow managed... I was never refused "another date" on that basis, nor was it ever my requirement that a climbing partner should have any one piece of gear beyond the essentials... (harness, belay device, shoes or sometimes an ice axe)

Last but not least: be sure that the person from whom you are learning is indeed a safe, knowledgable and experienced climber. In a recent discourse on MP it became clear that there are plenty of people out there with misconceptions, some of whom (with only a few years of experience) considered themselves experts, and were willing to give advice that was dangerous and inaccurate, refute well-accepted and demonstrated limitations of gear and advocate for sub standard practices . Keep a leveled head about you, and pick up some text books... (mountaineering, freedom of the hills or the like). If the advice you're getting is opposed to standard practices, question it.

Edit: I wanted to add one more thing. Good climbing partners are like spouses: it is hard to find a good one. Just like with spouses, one must put effort towards maintaining the relationship. I was lucky enough on both fronts ( In case my wife reads this: I love you, baby), and made sure to treat my climbing partners with compassion, respect and genuinely care for them. As a result, my climbing partners and I had kept in touch despite moving to different states, becoming busier, not climbing as well as I once did, etc. We get together, dust off the gear, and have an incredible adventure... (This is perhaps beyond "second date" and more into the "we're living together realm", if so to speak, but worth mentioning. Sorry for hijacking. )

Safe climbing to you all,

-L

I will add this... learn how to properly coil a rope, how to use a rope bag and not walk all over it.
And bring good beer and smoke to share...
“So do you want to go on a 3rd date”?

Dan Africk wrote: I think this has been said, but one way to NOT get asked out again is when after a climb, you hand your leader a rat's nest of slings and gear all tangled and knotted together, slings dangling and snagging, so badly that you curse their carelessness and ineptitude as you struggle to de-tangle and sort it all out. Sometimes this happens after the last climb of the day, and I don't realize how bad it is until days later (when I'm sorting out my gear the night before another climbing trip), and it's never pleasant..

First timers get a pass, especially if they're really new and were scared during the climb. It can take a few times out to learn to clean efficiently. But if it's their second time out, and they didn't even make an effort to shorten the draws and keep the gear neat, that is not okay.. Rat's nests of gear wast time and damage equipment

I avoid this problem by teaching my partners how I rack my gear and how they should clean a pitch and organize the gear on one shoulder sling with all the passive gear on one biner, all the cams by type and size, all the alpine draws yosemite racked and the cordelette compact and tidy so that when they reach the belay, after they clove their rope into the master point one handed and say off belay, then while I am taking then off belay they can simultaneously just slip the free shoulder slings over my head first and then set the organized gear sling over my head so that I can start racking while they are flipping the rope and putting me on belay.  This system makes gear transitions fast and efficient and there is no risk of dropping gear since we arent handing it one piece at a time.  

simplyput . wrote: I’m not so sure this thread IS about rank beginners . 2 years ago, the OP specifically mentioned people hoping to transition into trad multipitch. The word transition points to some previous experience.

In my opinion, those who are new to multipitch trad are pretty much rank beginners.  

Look at the short list of skills they learn to roprope.Then look at the long list of skills they need to learn to safely and competently climb trad.  

tim wrote: I can't imagine anyone reading all that.

Yeah me too

Geeeze...I really have to remember all that?!?! What a PITA!

See you in the gym...

Mal, it obviously wasn't written for you.  And anyway, you remember it because you already know it---whether or not it was a PITA for you to acquire all that knowledge only you can say.  The relatively slow mastery of various aspects of climbing that you and I enjoyed has now been drastically truncated, with the result that people are getting on moderately challenging routes with none of the simple skills and procedures previous generations learned over time.  

I wrote it after a series of mostly merely annoying experiences with people who could climb well enough but were clueless about all the details that make multipitch trad a pleasure rather than a tribulation.  Experienced climbers have taken issue with this or that point, which makes perfect sense considering we don't all do everything the same way, and of course the tl;dr crowd has weighed in as expected.

No one is making anyone read, memorize, or do any of it.  But if you find yourself climbing with recent  converts from sport and/or gym climbing, you'll have a better day if they've  got a sense of what's in that piece.

\snark

Malcolm Daly wrote: Geeeze...I really have to remember all that?!?! What a PITA!

See you in the gym...

Special rules just for you:

First date first.
1) get that place in Hailey
2) go to COR or some place to meet and climb
3) don't be That Guy Who Killed OLH
4) I will endeavour not to be That Noob Who Finished Off Malcolm Daly

Second date.
1) as above, but with an additional flagon of coffee for OLH.

* fine print YGD, etc etc

The End.

©OLH

Malcolm Daly wrote: Geeeze...I really have to remember all that?!?! What a PITA!

See you in the gym...

I thought this was really funny, but if you don’t know who Malcolm Daly is, you might not get the joke. 

(Not implying rgold doesn’t know Malcolm. Rich knows everything ;-)

This is still such a good reference point and I’m glad I can re read this.  I hope this will always accessible for me and new climbers........ thank you for starting this thread Rgold