Do you Check the Top?

If you're at a sport climbing crag, do you hike to the top of the crag to make sure no one is on top, and setting top-ropes?

I was climbing at a local, public crag yesterday and was scolded by a "guide" who was teaching a top-rope rigging class for not checking with the top of the crag on a route. I was leading up a route that he was planning on dropping a top rope on. As I neared the top he said it was my responsibility, and good climbing ethics to check the top of a crag before climbing a route. I had no idea they were even up there, but apparently he knew we were at the base. There was no signage or communication that a class was being taught at the top.

Is it really my responsibility to check with the top at a sport climbing crag before leading up? This was new to me.

I say two things:
1. If you were already on the route while he was about to throw the line, you were there first. No lack of etiquette because it seemed nobody was around to ask anyway.
2. I prefer Guides yield to area climbers. That keeps the peace. (this is not your work area, making money off the earth is touchy business)

here we go!

Steve

Seriously? He said it was your responsibility to check the top of the crag? That is pathetic, and you would have been justified to ridicule him intensely.

complete bullshit. sounds like a douche with a "Toprope Site Management' badge mis-representing himself as a guide (and a climber for that matter). should have throat punched him.

That pisses me off for you. Please tell me you at least called him out in front of everybody.

It's first come first serve man. Even with guided parties. Why do you think they're always out there early. Sounds like he was trying to save face. If he knew you were at the bottom he should of thrown a rope down so you knew he was at the top and could move on before you got all your stuff out.

I also agree that guides should make an effort to try and work with or around other parties. That's good etiquette.

Id say that it is more his responsibility to make it conspicuous that he is at the top than you to check the top. Also, if it was just an anchor building class, it would be ethical to pick a location that was not appealing to other climbers.

But, there is no law book to refer to in these situations, so just aim to be as polite as possible and move on. Guides are just people. Some people are awesome and some aren't.

If his class was underway, you knew he was up there, and you started to lead up a climb he was planning on dropping ropes from, then I'd say that would be a dick move. But...this is not the case.

I always question when a "guide" scolds people on ethics. A guide with clients should be looking to avoid conflict, not instigate one. I also think it suggests an attitude of ownership and superiority over recreational climbers, which will invariably lead to conflict.

The bottom line is that there are tons of routes. The best guides don't have these problems because they have back up plans and choose appropriate places to hold their classes.

Evan

and if you were to show up at the same time, I think a top-roper should yield to a leader, especially so if they are a 'guide' and will be there a while.
You climb from the ground up (unless its not a leadable route) so why should you have to check for top-ropers first? Makes no sense.

Bullshit! Leaders ALWAYS have right of way. And guides should ALWAYS yield to other climbers. Even if you see him and he sees you, you still have right of way to lead where ever you want.

Was he on route? Doesn't sound like it. If you came up to the base and there was anther party getting ready to climb but they weren't ready to go yet and you were, I say it's your climb.

Contact his company and raise hell.

Yesterday? That might rule out some of the boy scout guys.

Where?

What did this "guide" look like?

I think it was more the "guides" responsibility to ensure the route wasn't occupied than yours. Typically, anchors at the top of a climbing route are for climbing up to, not hiking around to the top of to drop a rope down.

Were they canyoneers?

Trad Ninja wrote:Leaders ALWAYS have right of way.

I completely and totally disagree with this, but everyone has their own opinion. I think whoever has either the least amount of people in their group and/or can complete the route in the quickest amount of time should have the right of way. Many times that's a top roper.

Edit to add: Given that they arrive at the same time on the same route. Whoever arrives first, be it leader or top roper has first dibs on the route

Top ropers have priority over leaders that are already on the crag? That's a new one. If they throw their rope on you while you are leading you could just clove their rope into one of your draws as tightly as possible. That should settle the dispute about who will be using the route first.

I wouldn't even feel bad about that considering that they never checked the bottom of the crag for someone who might be leading, and then ignorantly put you in danger by throwing a rope at you while you are on lead.

Doesn't sound like a very good guide or reputable guide service. Curious who it was.

Even S - What are you talking about? NO. Lead, follow or get out of the way.

It definitely does not make sense to have to hike to the top of the crag to see if it was occupied. By the time you got back down the bottom someone could have arrived at the top anyway.

First come - first served in my book. Sounds like you arrived first (at least you got on the wall first). I guess he could be justified if he arrived at the crag first and had started setting up his top-rope before you got on the wall... and it might have taken a little while to do that if he were instructing his students on how to rig the TR. But in that case he could/should have indicating someone was using the route by hanging the rope over the edge so it was obvious from the ground that someone was up there and preparing to use the route.

Sounds like he was trying to save face. In my opinion he would have been better serving his clients (and himself) by politely negotiating with you about using the route NEXT, rather than quibbling about who had the right to it FIRST. Even if he were in the right (and I'm not saying he was), it would have left a bad taste in his customer's mouth if the situation had turned ugly and you and he had gotten into an argument about it.

Jon Lachelt wrote:In my opinion he would have been better serving his clients (and himself) by politely negotiating with you about using the route NEXT, rather than quibbling about who had the right to it FIRST.

This is exactly what I thought, too. Whats done is done, move on.

The "guide" was in the wrong this time. He made it worse by trying to save face. Now - whats done is done.... etc

Timmamok wrote:Even S - What are you talking about? NO. Lead, follow or get out of the way.

I know my name can be hard to spell, especially with it being right on the computer screen.

But all being an asshole aside, I just think climbing is climbing. I think whoever can get done the fastest should have first dibs. I don't care what style you're doing it in. It holds the same for if two people arrive at a sport route at the same time, and one person wants to try and do it on gear. Obviously the party attempting a trad ascent will take longer (generalization, but work with me), so the sport party should have priority. That's just my opinion.

Sorry about the typo. good thing your a sport climber - those cracks will tear up your thin skin.

bull shiet ...

he could have kept one of this clients at the bottom at the base of the route who could have said that he was setting up on the route ... that would have been fair enough

but if there was no one at the base, and you see no one at the top, you are free to lead up

no guide worth his salt IMO would try to claim youd have to hike to the top BEFORE starting to lead

at the very least he could have hung the rope down first, or shouted down ...

first come, first serve is the rule here

Timmamok wrote:Sorry about the typo. good thing your a sport climber - those cracks will tear up your thin skin.

Pot calling the kettle black don't ya think?

Not a sport climber. Bouldering and trad.

To the OP, where were you climbing, could you share a bit more of the information before the lynching continues? Feels like there might be more to the story?

Evan Sanders, your right of way logic is absurd. (fastest party, or method should always have the right of way?) am I hearing that correctly?

JPVallone wrote:Evan Sanders, your right of way logic is absurd. (fastest party, or method should always have the right of way?) am I hearing that correctly?

Yeah, and it's just an opinion of mine. Think I'm wrong, then change my mind with why you think I'm wrong, not by just calling my views absurd. If you arrive at the same time, the fastest party has priority. Tell me why that's so wrong, then I'll listen