Waimea Perma Draw Discussion

Coeus wrote:The points that I am trying to make are 1. This is an international website, maybe you should start a Rumney only website if you do not want outside opinions.

This is the best website for getting lots of Rumney locals informed. I think it's cool that we can also have outsiders like you and Peter chime in, but let's keep it respectful and acknowledge that the locals have the most sway.

And locals, lets stay open to counter-arguments - they are good questions to ask ourselves.

Rajiv Ayyangar wrote: acknowledge that the locals have the most sway.

You guys keep saying this like this area isn't on Federal land.

Rajiv Ayyangar wrote:I can't help but wonder if similar conversations occurred with rap-bolting, red-vs-pinkpointing, and hang-dogging.

Of course those conversations occurred... in real life, where people can't hide behind their computers. Those conversations also took place between the leading climbers of the time and they all climbed, ate and drank and even lived together. I seriously doubt that any of today's leading climbers sit around and argue about permadraws.

Coeus wrote: You guys keep saying this like this area isn't on Federal land.

It's the context. Over the years we have developed a very good working relationship with the Forest Service. We are talking here about individual input and in that case locals and people who actually use the crags should have more say than say somebody in Alaska who is only interested from a more general sense and is probably not at all aware of the details of the routes, the cliff, the area, the users, local land managers or prior and ongoing discussions between the 2 groups.

It was always my thought that if the draws were pre-hung it was referred to as a pink-point. It blows my mind that all these climbers are sacrificing the style of there ascent...Jumbo Love 5.15b pink point!!

It's the only way to climb that grade. Nobody hangs draws at that level.

...and how about those bolt thingies?..and putting them in on rappel and not hand drilling? For that matter, how about the fools using ropes and missing out on the natural consequence of gravity?

Dailey wrote:It was always my thought that if the draws were pre-hung it was referred to as a pink-point. It blows my mind that all these climbers are sacrificing the style of there ascent...Jumbo Love 5.15b pink point!!

1986 called they want their terminology back.

ps.. "Their"

M Sprague wrote: It's the context. Over the years we have developed a very good working relationship with the Forest Service. We are talking here about individual input and in that case locals and people who actually use the crags should have more say than say somebody in Alaska who is only interested from a more general sense and is probably not at all aware of the details of the routes, the cliff, the area, the users, local land managers or prior and ongoing discussions between the 2 groups.

I think this is what frustrates me the most about people from out of the area commenting. They do not know the history of what has already been discussed (online and in person) and seem to assume that these decisions were all arbitrary and on a whim.

Rajiv did a good job of answering my points about the proposed permadraws. Although, let me be clear, I don't care about having draws in place to redpoint; I just think they should be taken down after the session is over. 10 minutes of thrashing to clean a route is hardly a big deal, which is about average for most routes at Rumney, given the angle and length of them.

I agree that Waimea is a kind of outdoor gym at this point. There is an inexorable momentum towards convenience and no/low hassle in climbing of this kind anyway. My issue is the line that gets crossed when the natural environment is altered to suit the needs of convenience and not safety. There are no hard and fast lines here but it is easy to persuade ourselves that we are "giving back" when in fact we are taking away from the environment in order to serve a human agenda.

Obviously I respect the local community at Rumney and the work they have done to create a regional and even national climbing mecca. I am confident that the job will be done well. But climbing is not necessarily about removing hassles or only selectively choosing difficulties, according to individual or group taste. In my view, the rock and natural environment is the foundation of the sport and should be respected above everything else.

Coeus wrote:3. Jake D. and Nick Rhoads have the discussion skills of elementary school children.

Meh, I think I'm doing pretty good here, I just add in the "elementary" part for comedic effect ;)

So, how do you guys decide who is "local" and who is not?

Nick Rhoads wrote: So, how do you guys decide who is "local" and who is not?

People who do or did climb at Rumney or otherwise use it for hiking, riding etc. with some regularity, not necessarily living right there. It's 99.99% climbers who use the area, though a very few hikers show up (usually ones who are lost and think they are on the trail to the summit)and a handful of birders and naturalists. There is some mountain biking on the back side that locals use, and with the new trail paralleling the road, I bet some of the local villagers use it to stroll, instead of the road like they used to. Some guy likes to don a coon skin cap and find obscure ways up the higher parts of the hillside.. all "locals"

As I have posted elsewhere on mp.com, Climb Tech has expressed interest, in writing, in making their Perma Draws have a lower visual impact; grey/black tubing covering the cable, matte coating for the biner, etc.

Must we limit Perma Draws to Waimea? What about the left end of Orange Crush? Giant Man? Stone Temple Pilot?

To conserve a limited resource ($$$) and minimize visual impact, I think we should, for the most part, limit Perma Draws to climbs which are relatively hard to clean on lower, which means climbs like Orangahang, Whip Tide, Giant Man, maybe Social Outcast but not climbs like Flesh For Lulu and Hope for Movement, for instance.

And as Gabe wrote, I will contribute $$ once we have a plan in place.

Carry on! :)

I do not think Social needs fixed draws. It is not that difficult to clean and the last bolt requires a thin draw or long draw to allow access to the pinch under it. as nice as it would be to not clean it i think draws would cause more issues than it fixes. especially since nothing else at bonsai needs draws.

Since the discussion about fixed draws has already been resolved, let's not discuss putting permadraws on routes that are not currently fixed. I agree that higher-traffic routes should get priority. I think Predator is particularly high-traffic and the draws are particularly worn and old.

OK, no fixed draws on Social Outcast, Perma Draws on Predator are a good idea.
Is there a moratorium on equipping more routes with fixed draws? If there is, then so be it but remember Techno was climbed by MANY for MANY years before the fixed draws went up.

Ok, as a local climber who cares about the issue but seems to have a more conservative take than some of the locals about this issue...

Guys, if permadraws are in the future for some routes, so be it. I understand the argument that it's a good, viable long term solution to a problem for some of these draws that have been on routes (like the extremely steep routes that have always had fixed draws since anybody can remember). Like Urban. Or, at Orange Crush - Predator. But. There are other routes that have been tossed about in this discussion, like Techno or Whip Tide that commonly see ascents by folks hanging draws. Some folks like it better when draws must be hung. What about that point of view. And there are lots of people climbing at that level. These aren't elite-only routes at all.

Also, Tsunami...Lee, I think it's cool that draws are up there. But for 95% of the time that I've spent at Rumney there have been no draws on that line. I know some people like it better that way. I've seen people style it either way. Maybe that shouldn't be a route that is permadrawed, to leave a touch of tradition?

What about leaving some room for both sides to be happy? I'd hate to see every single route harder than Social Outcast to be permanently fixed throughout all of the crags scattering this awesome place.

So, please. Take it easy on the replacement initiative. I know it' s Gonna Happen Anyway...but can we see some discretion in how widespread this implementation is?

Done right, Rumney can be a place that can make virtually any climber happy. I think it is like that now. You pick your adventure and not all hard routes are held to the same standard.

It's like at Rifle...there are a bunch of very hard climbs all at the Arsenal that are equipped with chains...if you do them all in a day you've done the "Chain Gang".

But not all hard routes throughout that canyon have been equipped with chains (thank God).

Most Rifle climbers don't seem to get too worked up about that arrangement.

Tristan Perry wrote:Ok, as a local climber who cares about the issue but seems to have a more conservative take than some of the locals about this issue... Guys, if permadraws are in the future for some routes, so be it. I understand the argument that it's a good, viable long term solution to a problem for some of these draws that have been on routes (like the extremely steep routes that have always had fixed draws since anybody can remember). Like Urban. Or, at Orange Crush - Predator. But. There are other routes that have been tossed about in this discussion, like Techno or Whip Tide that commonly see ascents by folks hanging draws. Some folks like it better when draws must be hung. What about that point of view. And there are lots of people climbing at that level. These aren't elite-only routes at all. Also, Tsunami...Lee, I think it's cool that draws are up there. But for 95% of the time that I've spent at Rumney there have been no draws on that line. I know some people like it better that way. I've seen people style it either way. Maybe that shouldn't be a route that is permadrawed, to leave a touch of tradition? What about leaving some room for both sides to be happy? I'd hate to see every single route harder than Social Outcast to be permanently fixed throughout all of the crags scattering this awesome place. So, please. Take it easy on the replacement initiative. I know it' s Gonna Happen Anyway...but can we see some discretion in how widespread this implementation is? Done right, Rumney can be a place that can make virtually any climber happy. I think it is like that now. You pick your adventure and not all hard routes are held to the same standard.

Well said Tristan.

You guys just need some more trad routes and "virtually any climber (will be) happy" ;)

trad climbs...yeah, I know there aren't many, but they are out there. More than most people realize. They don't necessarily get done often, but when they do, they are fun of a different sort, which is good I think.