Reverso Vs. Old-style ATC Guide

Some of you may remember me posting a thread a while back about my concern over the Reverso 3's apparent ineffectiveness in the guide's belay mode. Well, since then, some of the water-proof coating on my rope has worn away and it's working much better. I'm finally realizing that the key here is friction. (No duh; I know; I'm slow, okay.) Furthermore, I believe that the Reverso has a design flaw when compared to its old-style counter part. I've put the two side-by-side in the following figure.

You'll notice that in principle and topologically, they're virtual identical. There are only variations in the geometry. Of particular note, (and I've tried to emphasize it in the photo above), the Reverso has a dip along the channel walls, and this appears to be a flaw to me. (Perhaps they did it to save weight? I don't know.) The old-style ATC-guide does not have this dip, which means it's going to guide the ropes in such a way that the climber's strand sits more directly on top of the break strand. This maximizes the amount of surface area forming the contact between the two strands, and therefore provide more _friction_! My 9.8 mm rope is still fairly new and has a bit of dry treatment still on it. I tried interchanging the two belay devices in the same anchor with this same rope, and sure enough, I found the old-style device to be more effective. Of course, this is just me pulling on the climber's strand, and not a real drop-test, but my feeling is that the old-style device is more effective than the Reverso 3. How much more? Perhaps it's negligible, but it seems significant to me. Anyway, what do you think?

Actually, you are close to hitting something right on the head, though you are just postulating without a substantive method.

I wouldn't call the BD Guide "old" -- it's relatively pretty new. And I wouldn't call the R3 a design flaw, it just doesn't perform as well under testing as the BD Guide does; but it still works, and you'll never hit one with as much as a static rescue mass does. So I don't have a problem climbing on one; both devices still have their open system flaws and require an attentive & proficient belayer.

NEEEERRRDDSSS!!!!

Nerds are hot, dufus.

spencerparkin wrote:You'll notice that in principle and topologically, they're virtual identical.

Nice use of the word topologically. 1000 points. :)

Note that unslung hexentrics

are also topologically identical to both of those devices (before being slung).

The type of biner that the rope threads through makes a big difference, right? Up until now I've been using just a smaller BD locker while using my R3 in guide mode, until a friend of mine who is more experienced said that I should use a bigger biner instead. I have yet to try it, but using a bigger, more rounded biner will feed the rope easier, right?

Besides that, the BD looks Kick-Ass when I slip it over my pinky at a bar and fling it around.

The Reverso just looks awkward.

BD = Gettin the chicks

Thats all I care about.

Now I know what I'm doing wrong.
Learn something new, every day.

Is there a velocity constant that works better, particular region you aim for, or just zing it like with a boomerang effect?

Mark, nah, just twirl it like a set of keys, as in, "I drive this bad-ass mamma-jamma".

Works like a charm, although I seem to attract chicks who have big racks.

Richard Fernandez wrote:Mark, nah, just twirl it like a set of keys, as in, "I drive this bad-ass mamma-jamma". Works like a charm, although I seem to attract chicks who have big racks.

And that's a problem why?

spencerparkin wrote:Anyway, what do you think?

I think your wallpaper is kind of cute.

I will play nerd's advocate.

Your data set is agonizingly limited. You have already disparaged the R3, but found out that it was due to your overly slick new rope(s). You came back and said so (good for you), but then you go on to make more claims with the same limited data set.

If you want to make a comparison and make a claim, do the research. Try different biners, different ropes, and both devices. Have a control reference to actually make a claim other than "feel".

I have used both extensively. They both work well for what they were designed. They are both GOOD all around belay devices. The BD is heavier/beefier, so I tend to take the R3 when I am alpine climbing. The biner release feature on the R3 is a nice addition, but takes a little practice to get it down.

Move along people. Nothing to see here.

pt

Gear review

paintrain wrote: Move along people. Nothing to see here. pt

these are not the devices we are looking for

These are not the devices we are looking for

Try a Simond Toucan.

PM for my shipping address where you can send the above 2 devices after you have realized you only need the Toucan.

I'd rather use a hip belay than a toucan

blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

I'm not saying that you're using it wrong, but I saw this on BD's web site. Part of the video talks about the relationship between carabiner size and friction on the rope. They talk mostly about the ease of pulling the rope through the device, but the same principles apply. I thought you might be interested.

I think that is where you are reasoning incorrectly.

If the rope going down to your partner is running at a diagonal, then that cut out is the only reason your ropes will contact each other. The edge of the ATCG would actually block contact, not hold it in place if it was loaded on a diagonal. But with a loose system, they will right themselves when loaded (they are not fixed). So I don't imagine in practice to make much difference.

My two cents, but it is just my brain imagining it.

PT

you'll have the same problem with the BD Guide.

Here's your collection of just about everything odd that is out there. Check out the B-52 and the first generation Reverso. It's still a good tool I say. Old ATC and Mad Rock versions also shown, plus the Smart and the Jul' for single rope work. Now as for that Toucan,.....

I got this old school belay device that I don't even know what type it would be called.
Its a bar that slides onto an oval binder and has a grooved slot on the other end. I'll get a pic when I get home I guess. See what the old school people say about it.