Two Aider method.

Hi.

I was reading something written by an experienced climber who was explaining the two aider method of climbing.

I didn't quite get a clear explanation of the process from him.

This may seem like a simple thing, but can someone enlighten me as to their methods of climbing with two aiders? Mainly so I know if I'm doing it with efficiency!

Thanks, G.

G-
Check out Climbing.com-The Mag-Tech Tips-"Froggy goes juggin'. A picture is worth a thousand words. I'm not sure if that is what you are looking for???

England wrote:G- Check out Climbing.com-The Mag-Tech Tips-"Froggy goes juggin'. A picture is worth a thousand words. I'm not sure if that is what you are looking for???

Rather than jugging I was looking for the two aider method of climbing - rather than four ladders, taking two. but that's a great link! thanks!

GraemeK wrote: Rather than jugging I was looking for the two aider method of climbing - rather than four ladders, taking two. but that's a great link! thanks!

I didn't think that's what you were looking for. Good stuff in the "Tech-Tips". Good Luck.

I've been trying to figure that out as well. What I got from trial and error is:

Place piece.
Clip free biner.
Clip both aiders to free biner. (aiders and daisy on own biner)
Climb to 2nd step...fifi in.
If going to top whip out adj fifi.
Place next piece with free biner.
While in tension, flag one foot, grab that aider/daisy, clip higher.
Get on higher piece. Clip rope.
Transfer second aider. Repeat.

This seems to be the most efficient for me. Would also like to hear other methods since this is what I came up on my own. If using two pair with their own biners I would clip directly to pro and use same sequence. I don't have four aiders.

-E

I've tried using one aider, two aiders, three aiders and 4 aiders and my perference is definitely using 2 pair of 2 aiders.

I don't use any daisy since all they do is slow you down and cause problems. Learn to not drop anything. I start using daisies when I get into multiple body weight only placements.

Check out Piton Ron's demonstration in the DVD clean aid. It will save you a bunch of time if you want to learn a fast, simple aiding method. Seeing it is a lot easier than trying to describe it.

For easier aid climbing where little to no bounce testing is necessary I really like the two aider method. I disagree with Mcnamee's post claiming daisies made things slower. Personally I use two yates adjustable daisies and "float" a carabiner with two aiders between them. When I climb I can place a piece high and have a free adjustable daisy to clip into with and give a light body bounce test with. I love the adjustable daisy because you never lose an inch of forward progress and always have the security of a snugly tightened daisy. Where things get tricky is traverses and hard aid where continual bounce testing is necessary. For harder routes or traverses I often carry an extra single aider to use for these sections. Four aiders is really big and bulky. Any free climbing with this rig would be awful. For easy c1/2 stuff here in Zion I use alpine aiders. For any free climbing sections they easily fold up onto your harness and dont get in your way. Adjustable daisies are very useful for cleaning and jugging. I use an adjustable for my top jug and can easily transition from one aider on each jug to froggy style with both aiders on the bottom jug. I use my extra floating daisy while cleaning to clip into the piece I am cleaning. This makes is easy to move above the piece and still keep it within reach.

Caleb Padgett wrote:For easier aid climbing where little to no bounce testing is necessary I really like the two aider method. I disagree with Mcnamee's post claiming daisies made things slower. Personally I use two yates adjustable daisies and "float" a carabiner with two aiders between them. When I climb I can place a piece high and have a free adjustable daisy to clip into with and give a light body bounce test with. I love the adjustable daisy because you never lose an inch of forward progress and always have the security of a snugly tightened daisy. Where things get tricky is traverses and hard aid where continual bounce testing is necessary. For harder routes or traverses I often carry an extra single aider to use for these sections. Four aiders is really big and bulky. Any free climbing with this rig would be awful. For easy c1/2 stuff here in Zion I use alpine aiders. For any free climbing sections they easily fold up onto your harness and dont get in your way. Adjustable daisies are very useful for cleaning and jugging. I use an adjustable for my top jug and can easily transition from one aider on each jug to froggy style with both aiders on the bottom jug. I use my extra floating daisy while cleaning to clip into the piece I am cleaning. This makes is easy to move above the piece and still keep it within reach.

Caleb (all of you guys),

Thanks for your input - this is very interesting. Here's what I experimented with last weekend. I wanted to use a single daisy chain and two aiders (is this correct) and here is the procedure. Is it something similar to what you do?:

First move off the ground:

a) I have one aider attached to one karabiner, and another aider attached to a second Karabiner.

b) I have a single daisy chain cows-taled through my harness. The daisy has a single karabiner at the correct maximum-reach distance.

c) I place the first piece.

d) I attach a runner (I could use a karabiner, but I have a trad rack) to the piece and clip an aider to it via the karabiner that is attached to the aider.

e) I clip the second aider to one of the karabiners (I used the karabiner of the first aider). As this is the first piece I can do this.

f) I clip the daisy chain to the same karabiner as (e).

g) I walk up the aiders until I am high and clip my fifi hook into one of the karabiners attached to the piece.

(note, here I don't use the daisy (its not an adjustable), but I want to get into a rhythm).

Main sequence:

h) I place a higher piece.

i) I unclip the aider with the top karabiner and clip it to the higher piece, balancing with my feet on the rock.

j) I unclip the daisy and clip it to the higher piece.

k) bounce test.

l) the piece is solid so I transfer my weight to it. balance with foot on rock.

m) I take the lower aider and clip it to the current piece I am on.

n) I walk up the aiders. If I need to rest I can clip my fifi into the daisy chain. I eventually reach the piece and can clip the fifi into the piece.

o) Start again at step (h).

I also foung that you have to make sure karabiner management is spot on I found - because essentially you are stacking them and once your body weight is on them they are difficult to organize, so better make sure you have easy access to the one you need to unclip for attaching to an upper piece - otherwise climbing efficiency is lost while bouncing around trying to free caught karabiners.

Cheers, Graeme.

One of the things you learn while aid climbing and climbing I suppose in general is that no one system works for everyone. There's pros and cons with all systems and only after using them for quite a while do you figure out a system that you like best.

Keep it simple first. Buy or watch the DVD I mentioned above. It will make things a lot eaiser to understand.

I have this DVD. Its very good as a learning tool but I would have appreciated more detail on the various common methods that people use (i.e. Mr. Olevsky doesn't use daisies but I would like to, so how do I?). He certainly did a good job of explaining all else, however. And his words are very valuable.

I did find the alternative commentary very valuable to listen to, however, as it gets a number of experienced climber's opinions on such things.

GraemeK wrote:I have this DVD. Its very good as a learning tool but I would have appreciated more detail on the various common methods that people use (i.e. Mr. Olevsky doesn't use daisies but I would like to, so how do I?). He certainly did a good job of explaining all else, however. And his words are very valuable. I did find the alternative commentary very valuable to listen to, however, as it gets a number of experienced climber's opinions on such things.

I think the purpose of the dvd is get people started climbing walls clean and I think it accomplishes that. A lot of people don't use daisies on easy terrain such as depicted on the dvd. Adjustable Fifi's can be worth more hassle than they're worth but some people swear by them.

I use yates adjustable daises when it gets hard or when jugging. Aiding is relatively straightforward, however it takes time to figure out what works for you and become really really smooth without wasted movement. Some people take 3 hours to led the first pitch of Zodiac where others can do it is sub 12 minutes.

Getting out there and practicing using different systems will help tons. Take things slow and figure out what works for you before trying to go fast. Learn to top step, without tons of body tension, etc.

Have fun and let it take you to wonderful places.

John McNamee wrote: I think the purpose of the dvd is get people started climbing walls clean and I think it accomplishes that. A lot of people don't use daisies on easy terrain such as depicted on the dvd. Adjustable Fifi's can be worth more hassle than they're worth but some people swear by them. I use yates adjustable daises when it gets hard or when jugging. Aiding is relatively straightforward, however it takes time to figure out what works for you and become really really smooth without wasted movement. Some people take 3 hours to led the first pitch of Zodiac where others can do it is sub 12 minutes. Getting out there and practicing using different systems will help tons. Take things slow and figure out what works for you before trying to go fast. Learn to top step, without tons of body tension, etc. Have fun and let it take you to wonderful places.

100% agree. Thanks!

I'm no aiding expert...however my advice would be to just get out to a crack and practice aiding. I found it perplexing and couldn't understand aiding until I just did it. I've only done pretty easy clean aid...no hammering. Perhaps for more difficult aiding you need four, but I've never found a reason. Just more crap to schlep up there...I bring enough crap already. My system (assuming you are off the ground and on a piece already):

I have two diasies, two aiders, and one fifi. The fifi isn't always necessary really. Daises connected to the aiders...I've never tried adjustable.

Almost always standing on the highest rung of my aider I place the next piece as high as possible.
Clip the aider locking biner directly into the cam, into the upper biner of the quickdraw, or just straight into a single biner if I'm out of quickdraws. Flag a foot if need be.
Test the piece if required, then step into the higher aider.
Unclip the lower aider and clip it into the biner of the other aider and step the other foot in.
Now that is is established that the piece is solid...clip the rope into the piece.
Move the other foot into the highest step.
Place a new piece and keep going up.

I find it a pain in the ass to get either aider unclipped if they are both clipped into the piece. You lose a few inches not clipping both aiders into the piece, however you can get the aider off easier. You rotate each aider this way. Helps to have two different colors.

I try to top step every single piece and see no reason not to, however again I've only done easy clean aid.

I fifi if necessary to keep myself close, but it is an extra step so I try to avoid using it.

Obviously if you have to backclean I leave a few pieces every so often so you don't take too huge a fall.

If you avoid having to clip the second aider in to the next piece and just place a piece while standing on one foot you can just leapfrog aiders and save a lot of time. I'm not very good at this.

I think it is like climbing...you don't start climbing 5.14. You have to practice it a bit and work up to a fast, efficient system. I'm still aiding "5.7" I think. My first time it took about 2 hours to go maybe 20 feet.

Paul,

Amazing information. Thanks.

You explained it the same way that I have climbed on my practice runs, which is helpful - and I can picture in my mind what you are doing, which is reassuring.

G.

Paul -

Doesn't your system of being on the next piece, with a daisy+aider still attached to the previous piece expose you to the dreaded daisy-only fall?

I have a similar question asked in the Instructional Video thread recently posted, as Chris Mac seems to have the same issue in the videos.

Full disclosure - I'm an aid noob and trying to figure out what system will work for me.....

Andy

If you are looking to move fast don't use 4 aiders....ever.

2 aiders is the way to go. If things get really hard or traversing use a 3rd "floater".

So with 2 aiders and 2 daisies + 1 fifi....

Clip 1 A/D as high as possible to the piece....test if need be...CLIP THE ROPE TO THE PIECE YOU ARE ON(if you are leaving it)....commit to the top piece....unclip A/D from last piece and then clip it to the biner of the upper A/D.....move up to the top, fifi if need be.....place gear.....repeat.

Andy at some point you will more than likely expose yourself to the daisy fall. The 2 things you can do to mitigate it are....#1 always clip the rope BEFORE moving ABOVE the piece.
#2 Have an attentive belayer....no slack.

Have fun.

josh

J.

The difference between what you are proposing and Chris Mac is to clip the rope prior to leaving the piece.... and then, as you say if there is little slack in the rope, the rope would catch you instead of the daisy. Though I imagine with 100+ feet of rope out, the daisy would catch prior to the rope stretch.

Thanks for the tips so far everyone....
Andy

Two aiders?

I use two, and only two. But really, it is personal preference. There are too many brilliant aid climbers out there using more than two aiders. Who is going to tell them they are wrong or need to change???!!! That is loco.

How many aiders is a personal preference and if you become efficient with whatever set up you use, you will be fine. But seeing as you are just starting out, I would start with two... a) it is cheaper! b) you will spend more time moving upward, rather than hanging and getting all of your feet comfortable. c) if you don't like it, you can always add more...

Fifi hooks?

HATE them. People told me that I was suppose to use one, and so I did for a long time, until I finally said, "screw this" and did what I wanted.

A fifi is great until you shift around, think it is still attached, lean back, and FALL.

John J. Glime wrote: There are too many brilliant aid climbers out there using more than two aiders.

A couple of things...."brilliant aid climbers" is kind of funny.

I know some of the "best"(personally) and the ones that I consider to be tip top only use 2...if fact at least 1 person only use's 1 real aider and a 2 step "mini" aider.

Of course my opinion of what makes someone a "good" aid climber has to do with both style and skill.
The folks that are out there yarding up "cutting edge" (again that's alittle funny) aid in very efficient (and fast) style are what I consider "good". Think Ammon Mcneely. I've yet to meet someone in this catergory who use's 4...the vast majority rarely use 3.
The ones who carry the world up something "hard", take forever, and use systems to make it more "comfortable" and "easier" I don't consider to be "good"....not "bad" per se...but not "brilliant".

The main thing is too figure out something that works for you...in both style and technique.

josh

Andy Laakmann wrote:J. The difference between what you are proposing and Chris Mac is to clip the rope prior to leaving the piece.... and then, as you say if there is little slack in the rope, the rope would catch you instead of the daisy. Though I imagine with 100+ feet of rope out, the daisy would catch prior to the rope stretch. Thanks for the tips so far everyone.... Andy

Yep. C. Mac's way is the way I'd done it for years, and infact still do sometimes....clipping the rope in ahead of time can sometimes be a PITA.
However by clipping the rope in before "leaving" the piece you defiantly eliminate some of the "daisy fall risk".
Of course part of that is assuming you #1 placed your next piece high #2 aren't clipped in short to the previous piece #3 have little slack in the system.
It's alot of assumption's...
C. Mac knows his stuff....you not be misguided to follow his reccomendations.

josh