hooks

Well I have a few questions pertaining to the topic,
First what are some good places to buy hard to find hooks like small peckers and bird beaks, cam hooks etc? online or somewhere close to golden/denver/boulder. Bent gate only seems to carry the mid and large peckers and I don't think I have seen beaks there(except maybe once recently and now that I think about it, might have been the smallest pecker).

Secondly what other hooks are out there besides the usuall grappling, sky hook, cliff hanger, talon, peckers, beaks, rurps and modified versions of the like with fileing the tips to a point especially on talons for bat hooking and I remember hearing about modifying rurps into mini beaks?

How many of each hook for hard aid routes? specifically thin seams and the like. Is 2 of each enough or do you bring more to leave them for pro (rurps, beaks, peckers and the like) with screamers when the going is really desperate?

What about a local source for copperheading supplies (tools aswell as heads)

So far my hook collection consists or 2 talons (1 filed) 2 grappling hooks (1 filed) 2 cliff hangers (1 filed) 1 mid and 1 large pecker and 1 rurp. seems I need more thin seam gear IMO? I mostly plan to aid on granite, gnesse, peg, schist (black canyon and black wall on evans, lumpy etc) and eventually I will probly spend a fair amount of time in the fishers and desert in general aswell as out to the valley quite a bit further down the road. So based on that what might I want to start with for this round of gear buying?
Thanks

Jason Kaplan wrote:Well I have a few questions pertaining to the topic, First what are some good places to buy hard to find hooks like small peckers and bird beaks, cam hooks etc? online or somewhere close to golden/denver/boulder. Bent gate only seems to carry the mid and large peckers and I don't think I have seen beaks there(except maybe once recently and now that I think about it, might have been the smallest pecker). Secondly what other hooks are out there besides the usuall grappling, sky hook, cliff hanger, talon, peckers, beaks, rurps and modified versions of the like with fileing the tips to a point especially on talons for bat hooking and I remember hearing about modifying rurps into mini beaks? How many of each hook for hard aid routes? specifically thin seams and the like. Is 2 of each enough or do you bring more to leave them for pro (rurps, beaks, peckers and the like) with screamers when the going is really desperate? What about a local source for copperheading supplies (tools aswell as heads) So far my hook collection consists or 2 talons (1 filed) 2 grappling hooks (1 filed) 2 cliff hangers (1 filed) 1 mid and 1 large pecker and 1 rurp. seems I need more thin seam gear IMO? I mostly plan to aid on granite, gnesse, peg, schist (black canyon and black wall on evans, lumpy etc) and eventually I will probly spend a fair amount of time in the fishers and desert in general aswell as out to the valley quite a bit further down the road. So based on that what might I want to start with for this round of gear buying? Thanks

First off... talons have three different sized hooks to begin with, there's no need to file them. I've not filed any of my other hooks either, and haven't found a need to yet, but most of the hooking I've done has been on routes with well defined hook placements. When W.O.S. comes up, this will change I'm sure.

Other than that, as far as hooks go, two of each racked as sets on two different ovals (they have two different colors on their webbing, making for easy separation when necessary)

2 talons
2 grappling hooks
2 cliffhangers
3 Leeper Camhooks (1 wide, 1 medium, 1 micro, but I'd like to have two of each, including the aluminum one for soft rock)
perhaps an ibis hook or two.

racked on a separate Oval biner (and covered with a canvas bag to prevent catching on everything) are peckers, the quantity/size distribution depends on the route, though at most I'll carry 3-5 of the size 1 pecker, 2-3 of the size 2, and 2-3 of the size 3. I don't carry rurps, as in such situations where they will 'might' work I'll usually place a tipped out pecker. When Tales of the Scorpion makes its way to the top of my list, the quantities might change, but rurps will still stay on the ground.

Copperheads are racked on another oval, then clipped to the oval holding my punch kit, which also goes into another canvas bag (i use a ski-skin bag, cause I've got a grip of them and they're a good size) Quantity/size distribution of heads also depends on the route, but they're relatively light, as well as very important to upward progress at times. I'll generally carry more '0' sizes and circleheads, as they are weaker to begin with, then a handful of 1's, 2', and 3's. If it's early in the season and the freeze/thaw cycle has produced loose heads, I'll generally try to re-cycle the pulled head before I dip into my new ones.

Pretty much all of the hooks and peckers you can order from the Black Diamond Retail Store (801.278-0233) if you can't find them locally. Tell Kelly I said "hi" ;)

This said, all of my hooking so far has been on granite or sandstone (where cam-hooks are specifically recommended against), and I haven't made it to the Black yet (though its on my list of things to do).

YMMV, if you have an erection lasting for more than four hours you should visit your medical professional.

Jason,
Just thought I'd mention that Ed Leeper has recently stopped making his renowned cam hooks, so they are in short supply and are pretty much a collector's item at this point. I was able to snag a few from Mtntools.com, but he could only fill half my order. Other than that, everywhere I've looked has been sold out (neptune, bent gate, etc.). The good news is that someone is going to be taking over the production of Leeper's design, the bad news is that it won't happen for another year probably. So, I guess the reason I'm posting is to tell you to keep your eyes peeled for an opportunity to get some Leepers. I'm kicking myself for not buying a whole used set of them at the last Neptune's gear swap.

French, is this what your talking about?

backcountrygear.com/catalog…

Why yes, Mr. Stackhouse, that is exactly what I'm talking about. In fact, I just placed an order.

Maybe I need to practice my internet searching...

Jed Pointer wrote:IPoster #2 probably hasn't climbed much in Yosemite if he doesn't appreciate the vast # of bathook holes on the "used to be really hard" routes there.

Well, since he mentioned the Talon, maybe he does...

I prefer a Pika bat hook (split tip is nice to set into a shallow hole with a bit of spring action, seems more secure to me), and a Leeper for 1/4' drilled holes. And, for 3/8" drilled holes, a custom ground BD Cliffhanger is the ticket.

Edit to mention that the BD Grappling Hook has become one of my favorite hooks. Great throw. Useful on small edges to big radius, flatter features. Incredibly stable.

-Brian in SLC

From BD:

Talon

Three hooks let you match hook size to edge (from 5 mm [3/16 in] bat holes to 13 mm [1/2 in] flat edges), and the extra broad base increases stability—perfect for routes with tons of varied hooking like El Cap’s Native Son. The Talon should be slung with a 51 cm (20 in) length of 13 mm (1/2 in) or 14 mm (9/16 in) tubular webbing.

I have a couple of those "new fish hooks" and they work like a charm.

Great for hooking large features, like flakes, etc. You'll definitely want them as part of your hook arsenal.

John McNamee wrote: You'll definitely want them as part of your hook arsenal.

How often have you hooked in Zion? I've taken them up several walls (Trade routes) and not used them once. I'm thinking they are a must in harder stuff, but not in sand.
I do know that either Desert Storm or Disco Inferno have two to three hook moves in a row, but thats all I've seen.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
What have you noticed?
Kevin

The Fish Ring Angle hook is indeed totally kick ass. I had Russ bend me up a 2.5" one instead of the usual 2", and really liked the extra girth. Unfortunately I dropped the damn thing due to butter fingers, so I gotta see if I can bribe him into making another.

Russ, you still take beer as bribes, right?

kevinhansen wrote: How often have you hooked in Zion? I've taken them up several walls (Trade routes) and not used them once. I'm thinking they are a must in harder stuff, but not in sand. I do know that either Desert Storm or Disco Inferno have two to three hook moves in a row, but thats all I've seen. Correct me if I'm wrong. What have you noticed? Kevin

I haven't used the new Fish hooks in Zion. But I have in Colorado. In Zion, on the trade routes I just carry the talon which I find pretty damn good. You might not use them but if you drop a piece or run out gear they offer up options.

John McNamee wrote: I haven't used the new Fish hooks in Zion. But I have in Colorado. In Zion, on the trade routes I just carry the talon which I find pretty damn good. You might not use them but if you drop a piece or run out gear they offer up options.

Thanks
I just quit carrying them all together. I've finally found a partner and we are looking a linking up Moonlight and if time permits Prodigal. We've got a week off mid Aug. Hope weather cooperates with our plans.
Kevin

Since when did peckers, beaks and RURPs stop being pitons, and start being hooks?

Sorry guess I messed up.
Although you can use peckers with out a hammer in certain occasions like a micro crack hook and I would imagine other micro pin/ crack hook variations like crack'n'ups, beaks, and custom made RURP micro beaks would also work in a mostly or fully clean fashion. The RURP is the only one that actually resembles a pin, all the others are obviously shaped like a hook.

I don't really like thinking about them as pitons as I don't even own a hammer or funkness for that matter, I seek out simple obvious placments that don't require beating them to oblivion. I only use a small rock and stop pounding as soon as it seems like it's going to be hard to remove if I keep hitting it. But to be honest I have very limited experience with RURPS, beaks, peckers and the like (and none with actual pins), although it seems they do less damage then most pins like LA's, KB's, and everything else. I have found that a pecker works well in some pin scars with out much effort and minimal tapping on the thing or possibly no hitting it if the placements right. Like a tapered micro crack too small for an rp, same with seams and pin scars that won't take an nut or tcu. But what the hell do I know anyway; I don't even own any pins and have never pounded one, and to be honest don't really care too for that matter.

Man I'm so not PC!

I guess I should have tittled it hard aid tools including micro pins, copperheads and Hooks and the modified versions of any of the like. but not pitons!

Well, if you can hand place beaks or peckers for aid, you're doing pretty well and have bigger balls than me. I can definitely see doing this with the big peckers Black Diamond now makes. And by "big" I mean the ones that are like four inches high, much bigger than an A5 Birdbeak.

Kate and I used those big peckers by the dozen on our recent ascent of Bad Sign, and they are ETS. In fact, they have basically replaced knifeblades on our rack because they are so much more secure.

Generally speaking, we were far too terrified to hand place any big peckers, though! We whacked those buggers in to the hilt. Sometimes it takes five minutes or even longer to clean them, however, and requires patience and skill.

in my experience I haven't always had success with hand placements on peckers although I have gotten it to work under the right circumstances.
I haven't played with them too much on lead, and usually lightly tap on it but I know I have to remove it with out a hammer or funkness device so I usually go as lite with hitting it as is possible. I remove them in less then 5 minutes generally. Best way to practice this (or more generally hand placed trinkets)is on TR with a helmet and goggles so if the shit hits the fan your ok.

would big peckers still replace knifeblades for horizontals and roof cracks? seems like it would lever out of a roof, and bend in a horizontal. I guess you could tie it off in either situation if need be.

I have hooked in Zion a bunch of times… it can be kind of a sketchy thing to do, a lot of those little ledges out there are time bombs just waiting to send you sailing.. hookin out there is a game of luck, go test it!
I also took a file to my hooks I use out there and blunted them a bit.
I use the same hooking rack in Zion as I do in Yosemite minus the cam hooks, those don’t mix well with soft sand stone.

There is no need to overdrive peckers/beaks, the majority of the time they work more off of a hooking effect than they do off of the friction you would get from slammin away until the piton is welding into the crack.