Failing: 2007 BD Android Leashes for Cobra/Viper

I purchased the new 2007 Android leashes for my Vipers, and have only actually used the leashes once, though on some steeper terrain I have had the leashes flapping around on my wrists so that... 'just in case' (new to this leashless thing).

Over time the tool-attachment end of the leash has been fraying (see below) where the soft goods run over the hard cast metal part (duh! -- bad design). I looked down today, while climbing, and saw the metal peeking through the webbing (glad i didn't try to hang on the leashes).

So, first of all -- heads-up if you have this leash.

Has anyone else had this happen? I'm going to ring BD tomorrow.

Could it be from flapping around without the leashes attached? I tapped mine down to the shaft to keep them from flopping around when I'm going leashless.

So a fully sponsored "athlete of BD" said to me once about a Charlet Moser crampon of mine that BROKE......

He called them "Charlet Junk"

I sent the broken crampon back to CM, 3 days later a BRAND NEW pair on my porch. No one there asked me how old the crampons were,(5 years) they just replaced them......

Good luck with Black Diamond.....

Christopher Jones wrote:Could it be from flapping around without the leashes attached? I tapped mine down to the shaft to keep them from flopping around when I'm going leashless.

It is totally possible, and that is a good idea. Still, I kinda suspect it's having a hard surface directly beneath the webbing, which is eposed to rubbing against all kinds of stuff.

I'll call tomorrow, and let you all know what they say -- I can't be the first to have see this. I'm willing to bet they're already re-designing them.

JIM -- I'll bet you two pints that I'll get them to send me a new pair before the weekend, free of charge. Are we on?

Come on, isn't there someone that wants to blame this on being manufactured in China???

I'm probably totally wrong. I have the older model Vipers and the leash is also a different design. The China thing could be true. I keep going through Sportiva approach shoes and I believe it is because they are now made in China. I'm just glad I buy them at places like REI and Sierra Trading Post.

Avery, it's a little hard to tell from the pic but it looks an awful lot like those are fraying from the outside which means that something would be rubbing on them. Maybe even while they are on your pack? Not too familiar with the specifics of those leashes tho.

Anyone?

Avery, wow, pretty weird. I bought one of the very first retail sets of the new Cobras in the U.S. and have climbed on them most weekends since plus 10 days over Xmas and New Years plus a few long weekends and don't see any abrasion on mine at all. OTOH, I've mostly run them with the leashes. On the third hand, the studs don't seem to flop around and bang the shaft when the leashes aren't attached (like the old Viper's did).

Don't know what to tell you other than maybe a difference between the Cobra and new Viper (or external abrasion as Mal has suggested).

Let us know what BD says.

Yo Avery...having worked in BD warranty myself...I'm sure they'll take care of you, though they are just 2 dudes down there, and usually swamped. I know they'll try to make it right though. The only folks that don't get styled, are people that try to warranty some tired ass gear as if the problem was truely a warranty issue, and not that the gear just got beat on till it gave up the ghost. Like I used to say to those folks...repeat after me:

"Life of the product...not YOUR life"

Patagonia sure changed what people view as a "Warranty" problem.

I'll bet if you wrap some climbing tape or electrical tape around the shaft at the screw location, you'd solve the problem of the leash rubbing on metal. Since the tape is gonna stay put, it would probably wear less quickly than your leash did, although the leash rubbing against it would wear it down. The tape would maybe have to be re-wrapped every 20 times you use them, but that would be a lot cheaper and less hassle than getting a new set of leashes each time. Since it's only tape, you could easily remove it when you need to get at the screw. I know it's not ideal and it doesn't solve the design problem for you (or for BD), but it seems like a good solution for your situation.

Malcom - I whole-heartedly agree they're being abraded on something... I'm definitely hard on my tools, but in this instance I suspect a design issue that allows it to be so easily worn. I am sure it's not how they ride on my pack, but I don't know what it is. Perhaps random encounters. I'd sure like to know.

Kevin -- I've got about 13 days on these tools since mid-December when I first used them. Perhaps it's only an issue that appears if they're not used leashed (which would support Christopher's theory; they are primarily worn through at the center, which also supports that theory).

Tea -- What's up? Yeah, I've probably had 4 encounters with BD warranty over the years (who knows -- I've probably talked with you), and every time they've taken good care of me. Even patched my Bibler for free (and I did offer to pay) after coming back from Alaska with a bunch of holes in it. Upon my inquiry, they even threw in some enzyme wash, too (both you and your tent stink after 30 days without a wash). Now, some people do have a very short life...

Nate -- Agreed. Once replaced, I'll do something of the sort.

Very interesting, and troubling! I just purchased a pair of these leashes for my new Cobra's on 1/12 while in Ouray. Since then I've only used the leashes once I think soloing some really moderate routes so's I could get used to them and try them out. So they're hardly used at all. Otherwise, I go leashless but the part that bolts on to the spine of the tool has been kept on. I've done probably 30+ laps on WI2/3+ since and I haven't noticed any fraying. So I suspect that it comes from use of the leashes. With all the force that is applied in a downward direction while strapped in, I bet that it is causing too much frictional wear and tear on the webbing over that little metal piece.

I'd really be interested to know what BD says/does about this. $90 for some leashes that fall apart that fast is BS. I also don't think it has anything to do with being made in China. I would guess that they are engineered here in the good 'ol US of A.

Well, I just spoke with Chris at BD warranty and they are going to send me replacements.

He alluded to the fact that the leashes aren't intended to be installed on the tool if climbing leashless -- though we really don't yet know the source of the issue. I would argue that spending $90 on a set of detachable leashes, I should be able to install the attachment and still climb leashless... as well, the documentation should indicate if that is an issue (I don't think it did).

But -- overall, they're taking care of the issue, which is great. I'll tape down the do-hickey and hopefully it won't be an issue again.

And no, I don't think there is any relation to China manufacturing... that was more of a joke.

Avery, Thanks for that heads up. Dug mine out and didn't find any wear marks quite like yours, bought them in '05.

Had a conversation with BD recently about their production (concerning cams). They said the staff & factory is owned by BD and nothing is subbed out. Good thing you noticed that..!!

take care ~k

edit ~I see you just posted AN...I never remove these things when going leashless -usually a last minute decision anyway, these little guys are too easy to loose, cheers ~

Try wrapping a little rubber splice tape on the shaft above your leash tabs... it'll protect the shaft from dings when you're rolling w/o the leash attached.

I used a little zip-tie (through the small loop in the webbing behind the tab, then around the shaft) to keep the tab from flapping around, but when i DO have my leashes on it kind of prevents me from grabbing the tool-head piolet style.

trade-offs, eh?

kirra wrote:I never remove these things when going leashless -usually a last minute decision anyway, these little guys are too easy to loose

Yeah, that's why the comment from BD is a bit silly. It's not realistic to think someone is going to take these things on and off each time they change from leashed to leashless.

Look closer... you DO have wear marks, but in your instance, the entire do-hickey flips up and has worn away the paint. On these leashes, it appears to hit the webbing...

Last time,

No leash,

No problem >>>>>>>>>>>>

Stymingersfink wrote:Try wrapping a little rubber splice tape on the shaft above your leash tabs... it'll protect the shaft from dings when you're rolling w/o the leash attached. I used a little zip-tie (through the small loop in the webbing behind the tab, then around the shaft) to keep the tab from flapping around, but when i DO have my leashes on it kind of prevents me from grabbing the tool-head piolet style. trade-offs, eh?

Thanks for the Tool-tips Sty..!!

Avery I sent you a pm ~

Avery Nelson wrote: Yeah, that's why the comment from BD is a bit silly. It's not realistic to think someone is going to take these things on and off each time they change from leashed to leashless. Look closer... you DO have wear marks, but in your instance, the entire do-hickey flips up and has worn away the paint. On these leashes, it appears to hit the webbing...

so you're thinking that the wear shown comes from the tab flipping up and striking the webbing when you're rollin' sans leash?

interesting... if this is the actual cause, then the tab redesign to prevent shaft damage to the new Cobra (which to my understanding, being carbon fiber, would not handle the abuse shown on the Viper handles above) has resulted in a whole new problem. Funny how that works ;)

It gave me an idea for the android tab ver. 2.2 though. Too bad in this instance I'm not a gear designer. :)

Stymingersfink wrote: so you're thinking that the wear shown comes from the tab flipping up and striking the webbing when you're rollin' sans leash?

Yeah, I guess that is theory #1. If I rotate 'up' the tab it does hit the webbing on what I'd call the 'corner of the cylinder' of the tab. And, note that the wear on both of these is most concentrated at the center. Theory #2 is that it is just a very exposed location with soft goods running over hard goods, but I can't think how they'd rub on something consistently enough to cause complete wear-through on the soft goods.

Ideally I'd shoot a video while swinging a tool and look at it frame-by-frame. I haven't seen or heard it flip up before.

I looked at mine last night and they are looking like new. As I stated above, I have kept my 'tabs' on but have climbed leashless the entire time except for practicing with the leashes on really low angle moerate ice for about a half hour. I also tried to get my tabs to rotate up and they wouldn't reach. It doesn't seem likely that in a swing that the tabs would rotate up and strike the webbing unless they bounce off the shaft upon impact of the tool with the ice and then rotate up and over. Do you climb leashed more than unleashed? I'm still thinking its the abrasive rubbing of the webbing over the metal while pulling down on it when you're in the leashes. It'd be a little too hard to tell if they started coming apart from the inside out until they of course wore all the way through in the middle like you show on yours. It seems that the sides of the webbing are the only thing holding them together. Any picts of the webbing off the tools?

jfox wrote:Do you climb leashed more than unleashed? I'm still thinking its the abrasive rubbing of the webbing over the metal while pulling down on it when you're in the leashes.

Actually, of the 13 days I've climbed on the tools since buying them in mid-December, I've only used the leashes once.

The webbing was definitely abraded from the outside.