Which aiders?

Hey guys,

I'm making plans for my first wall this summer and I'm doing a bit of research into what gear I ought to buy. I really like the idea behind Metolius' adjustable daisies but being a total BWT, I have no idea if they actually are a good idea. Anybody have experience with them and/or care to offer an opinion?

A while back I wrote a review about some aiders which might or might not help. I'm not sure!

I personally don't like using adjustables other than one for my waist, (Yates) but the thing to remember about aiders is that no one size fits all, and the best way to figure out what suits you is to try a lot of difficult types. Often this is really difficult and not a very helpful thing to say!

If I was going to buy a new set of aiders I would check out the new fish ladders.

fishproducts.com

Hopefully a few more folks will post up.

Cheers

John

Doh, I meant to say "Metolius' adjustable aiders".

I think the Metolius adjustable aiders are way to futzy for leading. they're great for jugging, but even for that a better choice is the (Florine designed) Yates JJ's.

I'm a big fan of the Misty Mountain aiders, they have a little elastic strip on the 4th and 5th step that help your foot stay on the step when you're jugging.

sactownclimber wrote:Doh, I meant to say "Metolius' adjustable aiders".

I was thinking you probably meant either aiders or dasies!

I like the Yates adjustables for jugging.

John

I have actually had an opportunity to use and try Metolius Adjustable Aiders for leading on aid, but they don't really work very well. It was about five-six years ago I tried them, and I honestly can't remember what the problem was. It might not be possible to step very high using them.

Metolius Adjustable Daisies would be fabulous for jugging, however I would not be willing to pay $80 or $100 for a pair just to have the convenience.

As for aiders, I don't use regular aiders any more - I use Russkies pretty much exclusively. But you can't go wrong with a pair of Yates Adjustable Daisies [the one WITHOUT the built-in Screamer] and some Yates aides. You can click here to see all Yates aiders and stuff. I see John now makes an adjustable speed stirrup for jugging, but is wise enough to know that it is not really good for leading [which Metolius might not "get"].

Have a look at the Big Wall Ladders and the Speed Wall Ladders - the spreader bar makes them so much easier to get your feet into, and the colour coding on the steps is super handy. You can't go wrong with Yates Gear - ever.

Cheers,
Pete

So . . . looking at the Yates Wall ladders . . . is the 2" webbing on the wall ladders worth the extra $5 over the speed ladders? x4 aiders, that's an extra $20 . . . is it worth it?

I personally am not a fan of adjustable aiders but the metolius adj. daisy's are sweet. I have grown fond of standard metolius step ladder aiders with metolius adj. daisys on top.
cant beat those things.
light and super functional

sactownclimber wrote:So . . . looking at the Yates Wall ladders . . . is the 2" webbing on the wall ladders worth the extra $5 over the speed ladders? x4 aiders, that's an extra $20 . . . is it worth it?

Yes!!!!
If you want them to last more then 5 walls.
You will learn how even one wall will eat your gear like a cookie monster.

So the big question is...
What is your first wall attempt?????

I have the Yates big wall ladders. In most ways they really kick-ass, but I just piddle in aid routes here and there.

There are a few drawbacks to consider about them:

1. Bulky as hell
2. The PVC spreader bar at the top is both fantastic and a pain in the ass. If in a corner, they don't settle in well, if haphazardly placed. Stuff can get pinned between them and the rock, etc. However, regardless of configuration, they keep the ladders open, which makes moving up less frustrating.

I have both the Yates and Metolius A-Ds. I couldn't ever get used to the Metolius A-Ds, and don't think they can be released under load (say if you want to keep your systems similar for reasons of redundant gear on a climb and you use an A-D for pig-docking).

On the Yates A-D, you do have to be careful to keep the buckles straight. If they get flipped around towards the rock and release on their own as they rub against a biner, your heart may temporarily stop as you zip down your daisy to it's safety stop... never happened to me, but to people I know. They do work great.

I second the adjustable daises; I think they're almost revolutionary.

Like others have said, I agree the adjustable aiders are best for jugging only.

You probably already got this, but I also would suggest that you don't get aiders with offset foot stirrups, the ones that are in-line vertically are superior, IMO. I learned that one that hard way.

--Marc

That is funny Marc. I hate the inline vertical ones, and without a doubt prefer the offset aiders... I too learned the hard way!

John J. Glime wrote:That is funny Marc. I hate the inline vertical ones, and without a doubt prefer the offset aiders... I too learned the hard way!

I guess that's why they still make both. :)

Edit: Too bad we didn't find this out earlier; maybe we could have traded!

Edit #2: Congratulations on your child. Her and I share a birthday.

SAL wrote: Yes!!!! If you want them to last more then 5 walls. You will learn how even one wall will eat your gear like a cookie monster. So the big question is... What is your first wall attempt?????

WFLT.

As far as aiders go, I really like the Metolius 4 or 5 step offsets. If it's easy aid I go with 2, but if it gets hard (for me) I won't hesitate to go with 4, even though some of the fastest climbers still only use 2. I haven't used ladder style ones, but I can see how they would be less likely to twist around their long axis, which would be a plus (e.g. Yates speed ladders or Metolius 8-step).

I have both Metolius adjustable aiders and daisies. The set-up is totally sweet, maybe the ultimate, for single-pitch rock climbing photography. I only use one of each along with 1 Petzl ascender and a grigri.

I don't use the adjustable combo for leading on aid at all, about the only situation I could envision is if it was really, really, windy, then maybe you could go with one 5-step aider/one adjustable aider. But I think it would be best to just get a standard set-up and get it dialed.

Daisies: I go with old-school loop daisies, either Black Diamond or Metolius.

The Metolius adjustable daisies are kind of cool, the way they work, but I think they should be longer and stronger, so I don't lead much with them. Maybe, if I was doing something really steep, I would bring one with me. The adjustables do rack very cleanly on your harness, which could make them nice for a climb with lots of free climbing and shorter sections of aid.

While I'm not a convert to adjustables of any type, there is one thing that I really like about them. It's not easy to visualize with the Metolius (as it comes from the manufacturer), but see if you can picture this with the Yates style: When you pull up the slack in the adjustable daisy, as if you were standing in your 2nd or top step of your aiders, there is no loop of slack daisy webbing below you which could impede your upward progress if it caught under your foot because you weren't paying attention. (This would be the 'U' shaped looped formed by the conventional loop style daisy running from your harness to the carabiner that your aider is on.)

I don't think there's any debate that adjustable daisies help you get up quickly, and transfer your weight quickly to your harness. What nobody seems to talk about is that it is somewhat tedious to keep lengthening them, which you might have to do twice on a given placement – once if you have to climb down to test and once again to extend it to be able to reach the next placement.

That's probably the reason that you see some of the fastest climbers still using old style daisies.

John J. Glime wrote:That is funny Marc. I hate the inline vertical ones, and without a doubt prefer the offset aiders... I too learned the hard way!

funny. having a pair of both BD's offset aiders and a pair of Misty's aid ladders, it's the misty ladders that get preferential treatment. I've got three of them, once I pick up a fourth I'll retire the BD ladders completely.

'Course, I prefer to run with two pairs of aiders on most "A"id climbs, so that's how much of a wanker I am. On "C"lean aid, maybe two-three ladders, independent of each other, but mostly two.

Pretty much screw the adjustable anything (other than the Kong fifi) for anything but jugging.

Those elastic straps mentioned before on the Misty products though... those kick ass.

It seems everyone on here doesn't like adjustable aiders... except me. They are all I use. If you are used to the traditional ladder set up, they take a lot of getting used to. For one thing, you have to think a bit like a free climber... if an aid move is taking you lightly left or right, then you have to think which aider are you gonna want on which piece at which level... just like you have to think about looking for foot holds. I approach this by climbing with a lot of petzl O-Wall carabiners. THose biners allow three other biners in their base (two aiders and a daisy). This means, in free climbing terms, you can match on your foothold. If you had to clip one aider into the biner of the other aider, you cannot match, but by having space for three you can chose which one to move to the next piece. Its no more complicated than thinking one move ahead and it allows you to keep your foot in the aiders in wierd moves. The key is seeing the sequence AND having a means of matching those biners. Again, OWalls when I see this coming, are my way of dealing with it. BTW, this makes aid climbing more fun for me... I have to think about sequences as well as gear.

My Metolius aiders synch up as tight as the high step on any of the ladder aiders I've used, so the "you can't high step" thing doesn't make any sense to me. The fact that you can adjust them to exactly where you want them makes them much easier to get into that high step (especially when tired). It also makes it easy, when need be, to equalize weight on pieces.

There is one caveat. The Met aiders have this strap in system that locks your foot in place. In the event of a fall as you are moving from a solid piece to a weaker piece, this would hold your foot in the weaker piece and thus hang up that leg when you fell... that could be very ugly. I remedied this by cutting out the strap and adding a piece of bungy in its place. It still holds my foot in the strap, but if I yanked really hard (like in a fall) the foot would come out.

Oh, and for every minute you spend thinking about about your aider sequence, you save a minute in learning how to jug with other adiers. Having your foot strapped in is great in all jugging applications.