Is bouldering actually helping me?

Hello,

First, I have to get something off my chest, I love bouldering. Just for the sake of bouldering. Its so simple and awesome and after a lot of multipitch or even single pitch, it can be a welcomed change to spend time so close to the ground. 

Goal: I am about a 5.10 onsight trad climber and I want to become a 5.11 onsight trad climber. There are just so many sick lines.  (I probably thought the same thing about all the sick 5.10 trad lines when I was a 5.9 onsight trad climber).

I am approaching this from a "bro science" mindset. The analogy is, if I can't bench press 225 for a set of 1, how can I do it for a set of 8? Extrapolated to climbing, maybe 5.11 is just a bunch of V3(?) boulder problems stacked on top of each other. If I can't boulder V3, how can I do it over and over? So, I must get stronger at bouldering before learning to control it and sustain it. So, I have spent a good amount of energy bouldering over the past few months. Whether it is in a commercial set, on a TB2, or outside. There are challenges with all types (commercial sets can be soft or not have carry over, board climbing is a bit reductionist with no features, and outside is dangerous and hot). But, my hang up here is actually not unique to any type of bouldering.

What is happening is that when I get stronger after prolonged bouldering, I go to climb on ropes and get PUMPED!!! Like immediate, unrelenting, pump. And then, after some more time rope climbing, I go back to the gym and I feel as though I've lost the bouldering gains.

Can anyone relate to this? Is this where the idea of training blocks came from? Am I doing the bouldering thing wrong? Am I already strong enough since I can send V3 on the TB2? Is it time to just shut up and climb? 

Thanks!

Do high-low training.  Max power/bouldering one day, then sub-maximal volume on ropes the next climbing day.  A mild but manageable pump will build capillarity.  If you pump out and hang on the rope you are going way too hard.

Ward Smith wrote:

Do high-low training.  Max power/bouldering one day, then sub-maximal volume on ropes the next climbing day.  A mild but manageable pump will build capillarity.  If you pump out and hang on the rope you are going way too hard.

I'll have to give it a try. Recently, I have been trying routes that caused me to hang rather than just sending. 

Also, i had to look up capillarity, and that lead me to reading about ARCing. I could give that a try too 

TJ Bindseil wrote:

I'll have to give it a try. Recently, I have been trying routes that caused me to hang rather than just sending. 

Also, i had to look up capillarity, and that lead me to reading about ARCing. I could give that a try too 

Now you're getting the training mindset, enjoy the rabbit hole. Ward is right, I would go a bit further to say you can do some blocks of hard boulder/rope with less endurance and then flip flop for the next block after a de-load. Each block should concentrate on an aspect to improve (power, power endurance, pure endurance) but not completely neglect the others. Blocks can be about 1-2 weeks with some built in rest periods. Personally think people shouldn't train more than 8 weeks before taking a solid 1-2 weeks to relax and just climb for fun. Trad onsighting, as your probably already aware, generally requires more time on the wall than sport climbing since you're doing all the sport climbing things but also fiddling with gear, which can require more effort to place on harder routes. You will want your max power to be a couple grades higher than what your goal consistent onsight grade is so you still have some "in the tank" when you get to the crux.

I think bouldering is very valuable for trad climbing, especially the trad climbs in the Front Range. So many climbs here are moderate climbing to a short crux section. Bouldering gives you margin to be able to do the hard moves without them feeling too hard. I've felt similarly though when I'm mostly focusing on bouldering and have zero endurance, but in seasons where I've only sport climbed I end up feeling weak and can't pull the hard moves. I like the balanced approaches recommended above.

Ward Smith wrote:

Do high-low training.  Max power/bouldering one day, then sub-maximal volume on ropes the next climbing day.  A mild but manageable pump will build capillarity.  If you pump out and hang on the rope you are going way too hard.

Hey Ward, my daughters are on the XC team and after steady state runs they do strides. I see a correlation between hill days and tempo days with alternating bouldering with endurance days...

Edit: so maybe some benefit for recovery to add in a 4x4 a grade or two below a power endurance 4x4?

Thanks for the further insight and ideas! I guess I am peering over the edge of the training rabbit hole, and I am excited to start going in. It seems like there is a healthy balance between some all in bouldering focused block, and completely neglecting it. 

Bolting Karen, I'm surprised you suggested such a short training block. But at the same time, I have noticed that after even just two weeks of really going for it, I am so "in the hole" recovery wise, that even after a rest day I am flat. Shorter blocks would likely cut out some of the junk training at the end of a cycle.

Jon, I typically agree with the nature of routes out here. I think whats funny for me right now is that, even if the route has a bouldery crux with the surrounding climbing a bit easier, I am still unable to summon my bouldering powers due to the pump. Its the pump that won't quit without an hour of rest lol. I think over training is likely playing a role. Hopefully a bit more endurance work with help with this

Todd, I have yet to even try any 4x4, but I should get on it as they show up a lot in training discussions! I also try to draw parallels between climbing training and my experience with swimming training as a young'un, but its so different with the variety of ways we climb. Still its probably good to get insight from other sports.   

One thing I'm curious about more generally, do you all notice that gym climbing lends itself to training better than outdoor climbing? It certainly is a lot more time efficient, but maybe it doesn't have as much carry over since time on rock seems so valuable. Seems like if training is relegated to indoor, it will be even more important to incorporate a week or two of fun outdoor climbing

What do you think?

TJ Bindseil wrote:

 One thing I'm curious about more generally, do you all notice that gym climbing lends itself to training better than outdoor climbing? It certainly is a lot more time efficient, but maybe it doesn't have as much carry over since time on rock seems so valuable. Seems like if training is relegated to indoor, it will be even more important to incorporate a week or two of fun outdoor climbing

What the gym climbing has going for it is convenience and as you said, efficiency. The climbing gym is, at least for me, significantly closer and the volume of climbs I can get in is substantially more than when I'm climbing outside. However, the carryover I see from gym climbing is general finger strength, body tension, and movement which are all valuable but the big missing piece is becoming highly proficient at reading actual rock and learning good tactics for a range of situations/climbing styles.

And not for nothing but I'm not going to the climbing gym multiple times a week because I care at all about sending a plastic route, it is specifically for helping my outdoor climbing because that's what I actually care about. The gym is just a convenient and valuable training tool that life circumstances dictate I use since the crag isn't in my backyard.

I loathe bouldering. I absolutely hate it with a burning passion. But I still do it weekly because it's unquestionably valuable to my roped climbing. Random bouldering probably isn't helping in a meaningful way, but if you adjust your bouldering to be more purposefully in line with your other climbing goals (whether it be for building endurance, power, etc.) then I think you will absolutely see real benefits from doing it. It's great that you enjoy doing it too, that's a plus.

TJ Bindseil wrote:

Bolting Karen, I'm surprised you suggested such a short training block. But at the same time, I have noticed that after even just two weeks of really going for it, I am so "in the hole" recovery wise, that even after a rest day I am flat. Shorter blocks would likely cut out some of the junk training at the end of a cycle.

It's not so much short blocks as it is "deload" in the middle of a block. still training during that deload, just not at the same intensity. In a high intensity training session i will hangboard, climb hard, and lift weights in one session. My deload session will likely be half of my normal hangboard, climb at 75% intensity, and light weights if any with additional time on stretching and recovery during those sessions.

Steve Williams wrote:

What do you think?

Man this made me think a lot.  As if I’m not overthinking already lol.

I think first and foremost progress is made over long consistent time.  So not getting injured or burnt out is critical.

Further, progress must be made against a goal. I think a long term goal that I have is something like climbing astroman with a fighting chance of an onsight. I may not be able to fit through the Harding slot but I definitely think I could climb the rest of it pretty well.  If this is the goal, I likely don’t need much more power from bouldering, and I would be best served climbing a lot of granite or otherwise crack pitches. So no bouldering, and gym time spent on routes for general fitness.

But then, I was at the gym bouldering last night and just noticed how much I enjoyed it.  Which sort of gets at the bigger issue.  Things require trade offs, and I have to decide if I’m willing to accept the trade offs of whatever decision I make.  And I think a massive part is the effort required to line up partners (or lug the extra gear and do the extra faff for rope soloing).

For now, I’m not willing to give up the bouldering.  But I am down to lower the frequency, and start working on getting out on ropes more frequently.   I’ll report how it goes…

As far as gym vs outdoor time goes, I think I agree with others that the gym is convenient, but that time on rock is so critical. I also think the gym lends itself to more junk volume.  Probably better to focus on less climbing but climbing better.

Ok now… what do you think?

Bolting Karen wrote:

It's not so much short blocks as it is "deload" in the middle of a block. still training during that deload, just not at the same intensity. In a high intensity training session i will hangboard, climb hard, and lift weights in one session. My deload session will likely be half of my normal hangboard, climb at 75% intensity, and light weights if any with additional time on stretching and recovery during those sessions.

That makes sense, I actually have been doing a similar amount in a session.  A week or two of that and my ass is grass lol.  Deloading and climbing for fun should work well to minimize over training 

For any type of training, the gym is an invaluable tool. Just volume and access is unbeatable. It still takes a lot of experience on rock for the gym training to transfer (unless you are a board lord freak that climbs v14).

It's totally possible to do power systems training outside but it takes a lot more advanced planning and free time. It's easier to do max strength training outside since it is just posting up at a couple boulders and trying hard but that is still less convenient than a board.

For endurance training ideas, I really like the writing and approaches of Steve bechtel of climb strong.

Also 5.11 is really at most one v3. I think at those grades and especially for onsight trad, the ability to hang on for a really long time and feel comfortable while fiddling with gear is more valuable skill. If you can flash v3/4 on the tb2 you probably have all the power you need already.

Also imo endurance training is best done on gym boulders with exercises like boulders on the minute x20, boulder pyramids, 4x4, etc. Even better if you go during off hours or use boulders from old sets. This way you can program things exactly the way you need and you don't have to pester friends to belay you at predetermined intervals.

Israel R wrote:

Also imo endurance training is best done on gym boulders with exercises like boulders on the minute x20, boulder pyramids, 4x4, etc. Even better if you go during off hours or use boulders from old sets. This way you can program things exactly the way you need and you don't have to pester friends to belay you at predetermined intervals.

I actually think this is the answer to the question I was trying to ask. I feel pretty confident with the “strength” training aspect, but it has been hard to try to figure out how to train endurance.  I didn’t really want to drag someone along and have had a hard time lining up training exactly with other people.  I think I enjoy just getting after it with partners but training on my own.  Being able to work on endurance via these bouldering challenges I think will unlock new options.  

I’ve also enjoyed the climb strong channel on YouTube and I’ll have to go give some of his stuff another watch.  Thanks for all the insight folks.   

TJ Bindseil wrote:

Hello,

First, I have to get something off my chest, I love bouldering. Just for the sake of bouldering. Its so simple and awesome and after a lot of multipitch or even single pitch, it can be a welcomed change to spend time so close to the ground. 

Goal: I am about a 5.10 onsight trad climber and I want to become a 5.11 onsight trad climber. There are just so many sick lines.  (I probably thought the same thing about all the sick 5.10 trad lines when I was a 5.9 onsight trad climber).

I am approaching this from a "bro science" mindset. The analogy is, if I can't bench press 225 for a set of 1, how can I do it for a set of 8? Extrapolated to climbing, maybe 5.11 is just a bunch of V3(?) boulder problems stacked on top of each other. If I can't boulder V3, how can I do it over and over? So, I must get stronger at bouldering before learning to control it and sustain it. So, I have spent a good amount of energy bouldering over the past few months. Whether it is in a commercial set, on a TB2, or outside. There are challenges with all types (commercial sets can be soft or not have carry over, board climbing is a bit reductionist with no features, and outside is dangerous and hot). But, my hang up here is actually not unique to any type of bouldering.

What is happening is that when I get stronger after prolonged bouldering, I go to climb on ropes and get PUMPED!!! Like immediate, unrelenting, pump. And then, after some more time rope climbing, I go back to the gym and I feel as though I've lost the bouldering gains.

Can anyone relate to this? Is this where the idea of training blocks came from? Am I doing the bouldering thing wrong? Am I already strong enough since I can send V3 on the TB2? Is it time to just shut up and climb? 

Thanks!

TJ, bro science and actual science occasionally overlap but not always. So:

"The analogy is, if I can't bench press 225 for a set of 1, how can I do it for a set of 8?" 

1RM calculators are pretty accurate at saying how much weight you could in fact sustain for 8 reps. https://strengthlevel.com/one-rep-max-calculator can help you there and what's more important than specific load is percentage of load. So the 1RM calculator suggests that you should be able get in an 8-rep set at 80% of max.

Bench presses are not much use for climbing strength but hangboarding is. It's true that rarely on 5.11 are you hanging from both hands on small edges but it's a good place to begin tracking your finger strength in relation to climbing grade. Boulder problems less so for a lot of reasons but the principle of estimating max load and % of max for more reps remains. The trick is working out load intensity and volume.

I always recommend static hangboard-style finger strength training over everything else

"Extrapolated to climbing, maybe 5.11 is just a bunch of V3(?) boulder problems stacked on top of each other."

Part of achieving goals is understanding better what they look like in reality. So a bunch of V3s, let say 5 or so of them with no rest, is actually putting you in 5.12+ territory. There's an online tool called Darth Grader that can help in this regard. It's not perfect and tends to be generous with the final result but it can help better understand what's going on. More experience climbing is also useful. TL;DR just 1 V3 is a solid 5.11 crux

"What is happening is that when I get stronger after prolonged bouldering, I go to climb on ropes and get PUMPED!!!"

Climbing on ropes is a very different activity from bouldering and should be considered more broadly in terms of reps and total time under tension. You need to be working on understanding number of moves (reps) and time to complete the route as well as being able to complete the crux without it feeling super hard.

Basically consider bouldering and finger strength training as a way to lower the percentage of max you use on each move, then work on endurance, developing the adaptations both physical and mental, that will allow you actually to keep that energy expenditure low as possible throughout.

Training blocks should be distributed appropriately through the process, avoiding overtraining, building foundational strengths in each category required in climbing from basically 1RM to power endurance (5-10 moves/1 minute) to more endurance-oriented performance (20+ moves/ 3+minutes). I suggest 2-3 week cycles for each category, being flexible according to how you feel. If you feel you have hit a plateau, do some deload time.

Everything after is rinse and repeat, always aiming to increase load capacity in all areas relevant to what you want to climb. Building technique and psychological skills is also super helpful.

Peter Beal wrote:

Basically consider bouldering and finger strength training as a way to lower the percentage of max you use on each move, then work on endurance, developing the adaptations both physical and mental, that will allow you actually to keep that energy expenditure low as possible throughout.

I love the way you phrased this. It's such a simple and accurate way of looking at it and explaining the benefits of those types of training.

Peter Beal wrote:

I appreciate the in depth response. I also can appreciate the analogy you're making where the true climbing 1RM is hang boarding. I find hang boarding (especially repeaters) to cause the dreaded immediate perma-pump that I'm struggling with. I think this is actually a good thing in that it shows that hang boarding is working. I'm not sure if that last bit makes sense, but basically, a training stimulus should lead to fatigue and decreased performance immediately after. Later, once the training stimulus is recovered from and adaptations are made, the gains are noticeable.

The Darth Grader conversions pique my interest even further in 4x4 and other modified bouldering exercises. on paper I feel as tho I should be ripping much harder roped grades. Maybe I am more afraid of falling or over gripping more than I thought....

"The trick is working out load intensity and volume." ... "If you feel you have hit a plateau, do some deload time." - I think this really gets at the root of a lot of my issues. I have a tendency to overdo it. 

Some of the stuff you've written in the thoughts-on-training-and-individual-limits thread really resonates with me. I aim to do the best that I can while not worrying about when I'll hit my own personal wall. I don't really think I'm anywhere close to that wall, but sometimes feel that way due to over training. Taking some time off or backing off a bit will counter intuitively lead to improvements and then I'm back off to the races squeezing the lemon until its absolutely dry.  I feel that I likely need a bit more discipline, but not in the "get out of bed when you don't want to" category. Instead, I think I will need to ensure that I stick to a plan, both the type of climbing/training for that block as well as the rest during and after said block.

----

I think I will start with an endurance block when I have some time (with plenty of dedicated rest built in!!) to see if it helps with my perma pump issue. And I'm sure I'll come back to this response a lot as I go for different style blocks. Thanks again for the detail and insight

Cosmic Hotdog wrote:

What the gym climbing has going for it is convenience and as you said, efficiency. The climbing gym is, at least for me, significantly closer and the volume of climbs I can get in is substantially more than when I'm climbing outside. However, the carryover I see from gym climbing is general finger strength, body tension, and movement which are all valuable but the big missing piece is becoming highly proficient at reading actual rock and learning good tactics for a range of situations/climbing styles.

And not for nothing but I'm not going to the climbing gym multiple times a week because I care at all about sending a plastic route, it is specifically for helping my outdoor climbing because that's what I actually care about. The gym is just a convenient and valuable training tool that life circumstances dictate I use since the crag isn't in my backyard.

I loathe bouldering. I absolutely hate it with a burning passion. But I still do it weekly because it's unquestionably valuable to my roped climbing. Random bouldering probably isn't helping in a meaningful way, but if you adjust your bouldering to be more purposefully in line with your other climbing goals (whether it be for building endurance, power, etc.) then I think you will absolutely see real benefits from doing it. It's great that you enjoy doing it too, that's a plus.

Sorry to miss your response earlier! I definitely agree with your view of the gym vs outdoors. I think the purposeful bouldering point is right on the money. As I said up thread, I think some time focusing on different variations of bouldering will help me train endurance in the gym setting. I've typically only had success training pure power or power endurance in the gym. 

Also, kind of unrelated, and I might be misremembering, but didn't you say somewhere that the best way to prep for that last runout pitch on astroman was to boulder after a long day of trad? I think I have tried this in the valley and I ended up not eating enough LOL but being able to do so would definitely be at least a mental boost at the end of a long day 

TJ Bindseil wrote:

Also, kind of unrelated, and I might be misremembering, but didn't you say somewhere that the best way to prep for that last runout pitch on astroman was to boulder after a long day of trad? I think I have tried this in the valley and I ended up not eating enough LOL but being able to do so would definitely be at least a mental boost at the end of a long day 

That wasn't me but that sounds pretty brutal! I haven't climbed astroman yet but it's at the top of my list to feel like I've made it in my climbing. It's what I'm working towards.

Ummm...can you follow 5.11 trad cleanly?  If you can't why are you falling?  That should tell you what you need to work on...

I got my trad onsite to 11+ by climbing trad every weekend and doing periods of bouldering mostly in the off season.  In the gym I would just lead routes if I felt my endurance was lacking or boulder if I felt my strength was lacking.  If you getting outside every weekend I would not worry has much about overall endurance.  

5.11 trad in reality doesn't take much strength relative to bouldering but alot of technique and a good head/experience to place small gear quickly and safely.  The later part of this imo is a much bigger jump from 5.10 to 5.11 than 5.9 to 5.10.  Since 5.9 to 5.10 is mostly the same gear but 5.11 granite trad definetly requires smaller trickier gear relative to 5.10 climbing.