Thoughts on using double ropes as a standard in american multipitch?

Recently reading about the Seneca Rocks accident and what stood out was the notion about how Americans trended away from double ropes as sport climbing became more popular. Andy Kirkpatrick writes about it here: andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/v…

How many of y'all are using double ropes all the time? I've heard the argument that one modern rope is super good enough, and the SR accident was a freak incident, but the idea of climbing with 2 ropes has been on my mind.

I use double ropes for multipitch (Gunks) but use a single for local cragging and single pitch sport.

Of course, the advantages of DRT are more than just cut resistance.

Hi Kevin, this is a good subject. However, the use of double ropes has never been generally common in the US. Since the first use of belayed pitches on American, which predates sport climbing by 60 years.
The use of two ropes for leading on belay originated in Europe pre WW2, and came about specifically because of the failure rate of a single natural fiber rope to remain intact during lead falls.
Americans improved the reliability of natural fiber ropes by developing the intentionally dynamic belay.

These are the roots of the two systems which are deeply engrained in the respective climbing cultures. There are however various exceptions.

I was introduced to belaying the leader on two ropes in 1977 or 78 by the English climber Ed Drummond. And have since used it in my own climbing (and guiding) when something about a given trip suggests it is, or might be, appropriate.

Given current American thinking about climbing and “climbing systems”, I don’t see double ropes gaining much popularity here. All appearances are that double ropes remain very popular on the other side of the Atlantic.

I am expecting a new pair of half ropes in the mail tomorrow. They are triple rated ropes. And they weigh less than 4-1/2 pounds each, for those of you who are gram counters.

I'm also a huge fan of using double ropes a lot in trad/multip/ice scenarios, for a handful of reasons.  All of the time?- No.

+1 on the use of triple-rated double ropes.... that's my go to as well.

No disrespect to the deceased, but if I remember correctly another takeaway from the SR incident was that a longer extension off of the cam he fell onto could have potentially

prevented the severed rope.

Not to thread drift, but where are we reading that his rope was severed?

Evan Gallegos wrote:

I'm also a huge fan of using double ropes a lot in trad/multip/ice scenarios, for a handful of reasons.  All of the time?- No.

+1 on the use of triple-rated double ropes.... that's my go to as well.

No disrespect to the deceased, but if I remember correctly another takeaway from the SR incident was that a longer extension off of the cam he fell onto could have potentially

prevented the severed rope.

That's was my memory of the event too, Evan. Looking back at the accident report it does seem that either an even longer runner on that piece OR as mentioned if the piece was just to the right or left of the notch would have potentially avoided the tragic, catastrophic accident.

https://americanalpineclub.org/news/2024/9/11/the-prescriptionseptember

"One tragic fact: It’s quite possible that Gerhart’s extended sling may have perfectly positioned the carabiner at the time the piece was placed, but then tragically the carabiner shifted into the fateful position. Had the carabiner been just two inches to the left or right, it would no longer have been lying on rock but hanging in free space. Would extending the sling on the first piece Gerhart placed have changed the location of the carabiner in question at the time of impact? This is unknown, as the first piece was ultimately removed by the belayer before they rappelled to the ground, so we were not able to replicate exactly how the rope was running."

On the thread topic - I have 2x Beal Opera 8.5mm triple rated ropes I use as doubles, but it's been very difficult to find partners willing to run a double rope system with me. It's a mix of, "too much extra weight, too much hassle to manage to ropes, I don't know how to belay 2 ropes at once". 

Boreal Strut wrote:

Not to thread drift, but where are we reading that his rope was severed?

Um, the American Alpine Club report... honest question- what would be a better term to use?

https://americanalpineclub.org/news/2024/9/11/the-prescriptionseptember

I used to use double rope all the time in the past. I think it is especially good for multi pitch routes. You can share the load hiking up to a climb. Easily equalize two anchors. Protection options, such as protecting traverses. You can rap off a route easily. Then of course there is the added safety.
you can use them in twin mode or double rope mode, but don’t mix twin and double modes on the same pitch.

Now, I find most people are befuddled trying to belay with a double rope. That can be worked out with practice.
Historically I think single ropes became popular due to their use in aid climbing. On the first ascent of High Exposure in the Gunks (1941), Hans Kraus talks about using double hemp ropes. This was before nylon ropes. But same logic: safer with two ropes.

Cosmic Hotdog wrote:

That's was my memory of the event too, Evan. Looking back at the accident report it does seem that either an even longer runner on that piece OR as mentioned if the piece was just to the right or left of the notch would have potentially avoided the tragic, catastrophic accident.

https://americanalpineclub.org/news/2024/9/11/the-prescriptionseptember

"One tragic fact: It’s quite possible that Gerhart’s extended sling may have perfectly positioned the carabiner at the time the piece was placed, but then tragically the carabiner shifted into the fateful position. Had the carabiner been just two inches to the left or right, it would no longer have been lying on rock but hanging in free space. Would extending the sling on the first piece Gerhart placed have changed the location of the carabiner in question at the time of impact? This is unknown, as the first piece was ultimately removed by the belayer before they rappelled to the ground, so we were not able to replicate exactly how the rope was running."

On the thread topic - I have 2x Beal Opera 8.5mm triple rated ropes I use as doubles, but it's been very difficult to find partners willing to run a double rope system with me. It's a mix of, "too much extra weight, too much hassle to manage to ropes, I don't know how to belay 2 ropes at once". 

Agreed, thanks for posting the rest of the pertinent details.  Personally, that incident also got me thinking a lot more about my downclimbing abilities and strategies.

I use an Edelrid 8.9mm and a Mammut 8.7mm because the colors contrast and they were on sale

I liked them a lot for alpine rock climbing and ice. I disliked them for traditional Yosemite-style cragging and walls - too much faffing! For good ole 1-pitch cragging on primarily granite or sandstone, not worth the hassle. 

IMO they only worked well when paired with a like minded partner or two who could handle the ropes. 

Evan and Cosmic -- Kevin the OP and Boreal Strut are likely referring to this fatality at Seneca last weekend: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/203405589/seneca-accident. There has been no mention of severed rope involved in that accident. Besides the excellent post above by Eric, Rgold has also written on this topic on MP a few years ago.

Reasons to use double ropes:

Last I knew, there was no documented case of both (modern kernmantel) ropes being cut during a leader fall. 2 ropes needed for rappel descent. Which could also facilitate bailing.

Reduced rope drag on wandering pitches. Also potentially useful on a pitch with a significant traverse on it, for either leader or follower, or both.

Belaying multiple followers simultaneously.

It used to be common in Europe for people to own just one half rope. Two partners each provided one half of the whole.

I have taken double ropes on routes  where on  some pitches it is desirable to haul the pack(s), and lead those pitches on one of the ropes. Think Steck-Salathe for one example. There sometimes are other solutions to this. 

I used to routinely guide wall routes leading on doubles. Kind of a specialized situation.

Edit added: Mr.Rgold’s post made me smile. Yeah.

And I didn’t want to have the last word. 

Kim Smith wrote:

you can use them in twin mode or double rope mode, but don’t mix twin and double modes on the same pitch.

FYI the are professional British trad climbers saying this is bunk. I went down the rabbit hole a while back, maybe I can still find it. In a fall, the ropes might not move at the same speed, but they are both moving so the wear isn’t concentrating at a single point. I would still be hesitant to belay two followers in twin configuration, but maybe someone with more experience will weigh in.

Fan Zhang wrote:

Evan and Cosmic -- Kevin the OP and Boreal Strut are likely referring to this fatality at Seneca last weekend: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/203405589/seneca-accident. There has been no mention of severed rope involved in that accident. Besides the excellent post above by Eric, Rgold has also written on this topic on MP a few years ago.

No I'm referring to the incident that was already referenced in this thread, see again here: https://americanalpineclub.org/news/2024/9/11/the-prescriptionseptember.. I didn't hear about that recent event, tragic, RIP

This thread is mixing up two accidents.

2024: rope was pinned and produced a high factor fall and rope broke.

2026: climber fell a long ways on ledgy terrain. Rope did not break.

I also got interested in half/twin ropes.  There are lots of areas in NC where you need to double rope rappel and I’d rather climb with all the rope I bring.  

i've been using double ropes--now properly called half ropes--for about 45 years now.  Began using them in the Gunks at a time when almost everyone pushing limits was using them.  Others gave them up but I've persisted.  I do a 1-1.5 hour clinic on the advantages and disadvantages for the Gunks Climber Coalition Gunksfests. Those are basically slide presentations with a bit of in-person demonstration, not something I could translate here, but suffice it to say that there's more to half rope usage than long rappels, less drag, and cut redundancy.

Of course, sport climbing has diminished the interest in half ropes, even though some nasty falls occurring because of blown clips could have been mitigated with half ropes.  But beyond sport climbing, a lot of US climbing is on splitters in granite or sandstone, where the advantages of half ropes are minimal in general, and they can even get in the way.  Another thing is that a lot of climbing practice is driven by what the elite climbers are doing, and they are going fast and light and are willing to incur much greater risks than many of the rest of us.  This means that the risk reductions obtainable from half rope technique are dismissed on the grounds of weight and handling, and this level of disdain is passed along to climbers who may not have the risk tolerance of the elites, and in any case do not think they need to treat a sunny five-pitch climb in Yosemite as if it was a twenty-pitch wall in Patagonia.

So I don't see any substantial movement toward half ropes in this country. And maybe it's just as well, since one of the "drawbacks" is the requirement to belay with full attention.

Have been using 1/2 ropes almost since they came out, just carrying a bi-coloured 90m 9mm rope was hard work. Very quickly moved to a pair of 45m 9mm, then 50m (8.7?mm) and now 60m 8+mm. The biggest advantage is on wandering routes (and most UK routes wander), the ability to use short QD on sports routes, or clip a bolt overhead (with stiffy?) with low risk.

On small crags (i.e. gritstone) use one rope doubled, on easier ground just use a single rope. Local to gritstone climbers use a pair of 30m ropes!

The big plus is the 60m abseil, has to be better than taking an 11mm tag line up the route?

Or belay two seconds at the same time, saves time on mountain routes.

Yes i climb on the indoor wall with a single untreated 11mm.

There is at least one reported incident of a two-rope failure: https://assets.bergundsteigen.com/2021/08/70-71-das-erste-mal.pdf "Komplettriss eines Doppelseiles." If there are 20 or 30 known rope severing incidents and twin/double ropes are used in only 3%-5% of climbs, one MIGHT argue that the failure rate is the same. I'm not making that argument myself, but I'm also not losing sleep when I use a single rope.

I am a twin/double rope fan. There are lots of pickles from which I can extract myself with that extra rope. Pickles that occur lots more often than severed ropes.

I think the German Alpine Club decided that you can mix double/twin techniques in the same pitch (rather vague on this memory and don't have a citation...). In any event, I don't think there are any instances of a double/twin use in the same pitch severing one of the ropes because they ran unevenly over each other. Is that because no one does this or because doing this doesn't make any difference? Either way, it doesn't keep me awake at night or prevent me from mixing the techniques.

In the very early 00’s when I moved to Las Vegas, I climbed long routes on doubles almost exclusively. The wandering pro, and frequent 2 rope rappel descents made a great use case for doubles.

I still use doubles in most scenarios where I will need two ropes to descend. Unless weight is of the utmost importance, I’d prefer the added benefits of doubles over a single+tagline. The current available doubles/twins are so light that even the weight difference is negligible enough that my tagline comes out very rarely. 

I have ropes in  i have thin doubles that can be used as twin, but more often use a tripple rated rope. I will also tie into both ends of the same rope for particular routes. I do this when needing to add too much length to slings to avoid drag. Especially when the horizontally seperated gear is on the thin side. 

At Seneca there are lots of face routes that benefit from DRT. I often take a 70m tripple rated rope there. Or a pair of thinner doubles.

dave custer wrote:

There is at least one reported incident of a two-rope failure: https://assets.bergundsteigen.com/2021/08/70-71-das-erste-mal.pdf "Komplettriss eines Doppelseiles." If there are 20 or 30 known rope severing incidents and twin/double ropes are used in only 3%-5% of climbs, one MIGHT argue that the failure rate is the same. I'm not making that argument myself, but I'm also not losing sleep when I use a single rope.

I am a twin/double rope fan. There are lots of pickles from which I can extract myself with that extra rope. Pickles that occur lots more often than severed ropes.

I think the German Alpine Club decided that you can mix double/twin techniques in the same pitch (rather vague on this memory and don't have a citation...). In any event, I don't think there are any instances of a double/twin use in the same pitch severing one of the ropes because they ran unevenly over each other. Is that because no one does this or because doing this doesn't make any difference? Either way, it doesn't keep me awake at night or prevent me from mixing the techniques.

A pair of twin ropes broke in a factor-2 fall onto the belay.  Edge-loading is assumed but was not directly verified.  The article mentions that half rope technique might be safer.  This is certainly true higher on the pitch where different rope paths keep both ropes from being loaded over the same edge and/or can be deployed to avoid edges a single rope might have to run over.

There have been several tests to see if clipping a pair of half ropes together and then separating them could lead to some kind of pinching damage when one rope runs over the other in the commonly-clipped carabiner. No such damage was observed in any of the tests I've read. One of the tests I can find is in https://assets.bergundsteigen.com/2021/08/34-41halbe-sache-oder-optimal.pdf. (I've translated this if anyone wants an English copy). Here's a diagram of the setup.