Flakes, ghosts, and liars (oh my!)

There is no anti injury crowd, just an anti blowhard crowd. I don't want to go climb with a rando who claims to be a solid 11+ climber to find out that was 20 years ago and/or their injury prevents them from climbing anything harder than 8+. Be honest upfront, leave the ego in the closet.

With regard to objectively communicating your abities: This is one reason I started ticking routes on MP.  It's easier to show what routes you have done (and how recently you did them) then simply stating "I climb 5.xx sport"

It is useful when people can honestly communicate their abilities, but some people don't have an honest assessment of their abilities. (in life as well as climbing ) I think it was last year in a similar thread. Someone who had nothing on their tick list, went in and changed their tick list to say that they had done two full length El cap routes in a day just to prove a  point. I also have a partner that thinks that top roping doesn't count, but if I get a clean top rope on something that many letter grades above my leading ability, I find it to be an accomplishment.  and it also means that I can clean pitches on a multi pitch route that I can't lead.

And you can definitely learn a lot about a  potential partner by how they write up their ticks. Some people only tick the route. And some people don't know the difference between an on-sight and a red point. And some people write lengthy descriptions of the struggle. some people give you the entire beta, but it does give you some insight into their personality.

After 15 years of meeting a lot of partners through Mountain Project, I can say that most people overestimate their abilities. But then again, if you say you climb like shit, then you will.

And I guess another point, especially with sport climbing people will say that they climb the grade that they are projecting not the grade that they on sight.

I like to say that I am a solid 5.9 climber. I can climb 5.9 friction ,5.9 face 5.9 sport ,5.9 cracks of most sizes but I will not lead a 5.9 off width.
can I climb harder things?yes ,but am I always solid at the grade things? no

But bailing at the last minute is rude and unacceptable.

june m wrote:

It is useful when people can honestly communicate their abilities, but some people don't have an honest assessment of their abilities. (in life as well as climbing ) I think it was last year in a similar thread. Someone who had nothing on their tick list, went in and changed their tick list to say that they had done two full length El cap routes in a day just to prove a  point. I also have a partner that thinks that top roping doesn't count, but if I get a clean top rope on something that many letter grades above my leading ability, I find it to be an accomplishment.  and it also means that I can clean pitches on a multi pitch route that I can't lead.

And you can definitely learn a lot about a  potential partner by how they write up their ticks. Some people only tick the route. And some people don't know the difference between an on-sight and a red point. And some people write lengthy descriptions of the struggle. some people give you the entire beta, but it does give you some insight into their personality.

After 15 years of meeting a lot of partners through Mountain Project, I can say that most people overestimate their abilities. But then again, if you say you climb like shit, then you will.

And I guess another point, especially with sport climbing people will say that they climb the grade that they are projecting not the grade that they on sight.

I like to say that I am a solid 5.9 climber. I can climb 5.9 friction ,5.9 face 5.9 sport ,5.9 cracks of most sizes but I will not lead a 5.9 off width.
can I climb harder things?yes ,but am I always solid at the grade things? no

But bailing at the last minute is rude and unacceptable.

Well written, I agree with all of it. I tend to tell people I’m a solid 10- trad climber, but I’ve onsighted and repointed 11a’s

Maybe agree on objectives beforehand instead of trying to find "a 5.11 climber", whatever that means? Once you suggest an objective you can say how much of it you're comfortable or happy to lead, etc.

M M wrote:

Partners bailing the morning of while you are getting your gear packed up is a definite sign to beware of in the future, especially after a previous bail. I'm starting to believe more and more in the one strike policy, life is too short.

I am so strict with this policy that a partner of 15 years had a nightmare she was bailing on me the night before we climbed and woke up all stressed. I will risk an internet rando over bailers. I am a mom of 3 and have a job. I don’t have time for bailers. 

M M wrote:

There is no anti injury crowd, just an anti blowhard crowd. I don't want to go climb with a rando who claims to be a solid 11+ climber to find out that was 20 years ago and/or their injury prevents them from climbing anything harder than 8+. Be honest upfront, leave the ego in the closet.

I find the easiest way to mitigate against the blowhard crowd is to always do something moderate for your first climb with someone new. If we're doing a 5.7/8/9 for our first climb together, anyone is going to be able to follow that at minimum. Plus it's usually very easy to sniff out the blowhards on the hike in. If they prove themselves competent, we can hop on harder stuff that day. But by going in with the mindset that it's going to be an easy chill day, I'm rarely disappointed on the climbing front. The partner front may be a different story. 

Contrary to the "we're there to climb" mindset, I'm there to see if I jive with a new partner. So sociability and vibe are more important than efficiency and skill. I'd far rather climb with the fun guy who was a 11 climber a couple decades ago and is harkening back to the glory days than the latter day megacrusher with the personality of an oatmeal bowl. 

Mike Larson wrote:

I find the easiest way to mitigate against the blowhard crowd is to always do something moderate for your first climb with someone new. If we're doing a 5.7/8/9 for our first climb together, anyone is going to be able to follow that at minimum. Plus it's usually very easy to sniff out the blowhards on the hike in. If they prove themselves competent, we can hop on harder stuff that day. But by going in with the mindset that it's going to be an easy chill day, I'm rarely disappointed on the climbing front. The partner front may be a different story. 

Contrary to the "we're there to climb" mindset, I'm there to see if I jive with a new partner. So sociability and vibe are more important than efficiency and skill. I'd far rather climb with the fun guy who was a 11 climber a couple decades ago and is harkening back to the glory days than the latter day megacrusher with the personality of an oatmeal bowl. 

Good idea to feel out the vibe/weed out people overstating their abilities. Now if only I could eliminate the flakes and ghosts. Yes, yes, one strike policy… would not have prevented me being stood up for snake dike a couple weeks ago. Anyway I guess I’m just birching into the void 

Jared AE wrote:

I am once again asking yall not to waste days of my time and hundreds of my dollars going out to Yosemite to climb with you only to ghost me the morning of.

Shame 🔔 Shame 🔔Shame 🔔  Emma

Dude, I was there that week too. We both know no one was on the Capt until the afternoon of the 17th. I climbed at night on the Cap 4 days that week and didn’t see a single headlamp. Sounds like she was the smart one eh? Most smart climbers don’t start up the capt in the middle of a heat wave, regardless of their schedule or motivation. 

clee 03m wrote:

I am so strict with this policy that a partner of 15 years had a nightmare she was bailing on me the night before we climbed and woke up all stressed. I will risk an internet rando over bailers. I am a mom of 3 and have a job. I don’t have time for bailers. 

You are in good company. Piz described the same approach in a classic enormocast ep:

https://enormocast.com/2016/09/episode-113-rob-pizem-the-time-is-now/

Edit  actually you gotta go deeper - to my favorite climbing podcast of all time, sadly wasn’t around long enough but hilarious:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-thundercling-podcast/id1441266244?i=1000433876846

Kevin Stricker wrote:

Dude, I was there that week too. We both know no one was on the Capt until the afternoon of the 17th. I climbed at night on the Cap 4 days that week and didn’t see a single headlamp. Sounds like she was the smart one eh? Most smart climbers don’t start up the capt in the middle of a heat wave, regardless of their schedule or motivation. 

I have no idea what you’re talking about, snake dike isn’t on el cap, and the heat was discussed we decided to proceed in spite of it.

Jared AE wrote:

I have no idea what you’re talking about, snake dike isn’t on el cap, and the heat was discussed we decided to proceed in spite of it.

Sorry, thought you said El Cap.  

You might want to consider what you are contributing to the situation.  You keep having partners bail, but you are the one constant in all of those interactions.  I'm not saying you are the cause, but something in the way you are vetting partners is not working.  

Jared AE wrote:

Now if only I could eliminate the flakes and ghosts. 

Easy ways to mitigate against flakes and ghosts (in order of effectiveness):

1) Learn to rope solo.

2) Never rely on a new partner for the success of an entire trip. If you insist on rolling the dice, have a backup plan.

3) Never do a big objective with someone you haven't climbed with before.

4) Poor communication in the lead up to climbing day = increased likelihood of flaking.

5) Confirm with the person the night before / the morning of.

Also, if you are going to call out someone by name on here, then you should at least give better context about what happened. People change their minds, especially in the face of questionable conditions as Kevin pointed out. So this Emma flaked on you for Snake Dike. Had you climbed with her before? Were you planning on climbing with her your whole time in Valley? How long were you there for? (There's a big difference between flaking on a person who has only a couple days to climb and a person who camped out for weeks.) How was your entire trip ruined by the flaking? 

People are going to occasionally flake. It's the nature of climbing. So if you're going to start a whole thread to call it out, at least give us the context to understand why it was so egregious.

Mike Larson wrote:

Easy ways to mitigate against flakes and ghosts (in order of effectiveness):

1) Learn to rope solo.

2) Never rely on a new partner for the success of an entire trip. If you insist on rolling the dice, have a backup plan.

3) Never do a big objective with someone you haven't climbed with before.

4) Poor communication in the lead up to climbing day = increased likelihood of flaking.

5) Confirm with the person the night before / the morning of.

Also, if you are going to call out someone by name on here, then you should at least give better context about what happened. People change their minds, especially in the face of questionable conditions as Kevin pointed out. So this Emma flaked on you for Snake Dike. Had you climbed with her before? Were you planning on climbing with her your whole time in Valley? How long were you there for? (There's a big difference between flaking on a person who has only a couple days to climb and a person who camped out for weeks.) How was your entire trip ruined by the flaking? 

People are going to occasionally flake. It's the nature of climbing. So if you're going to start a whole thread to call it out, at least give us the context to understand why it was so egregious.

1) been adressed

2) it’s the only person I was able to find such short notice

3) I dunno man snake dike doesn’t seem that crazy of an objective

4) communication was good up until the night before, which could be chalked up to them being busy

5) I attempted to and was ghosted. Not just flaked on last minute, completely ghosted. No “hey sorry,” nothin. Important and relevant distinction and the reason for the callout (which can’t even really be used to identify her)

questionable conditions isn’t an excuse to ghost. Especially when we had agreed on an early start to beat the weather. I drove out from the bay for a two day weekend to climb with her on Sunday. I couldn’t find a Saturday partner so I hiked clouds rest as a backup. I came to Yosemite to climb, I didn’t get to.

Pretty egregious, no doubt. Posting someone’s name in a forum like this is weak, though.

Edit to below: that argument doesn’t make much sense. You’re saying there are thousands of Emma‘s in the world, so if (in your view) you call out this Emma for the so-called benefit of others, how would anyone differentiate her from the other thousands of Emmas?

Jared AE wrote:

I am once again asking yall not to waste days of my time and hundreds of my dollars going out to Yosemite to climb with you only to ghost me the morning of.

Shame 🔔 Shame 🔔Shame 🔔  Emma

Man that really sucks sorry about your Valley trip! People ghosting or bailing can be rough.

Although I sympathize with you I think the bigger red flag here is the public name dropping and shaming of people who flake/ghost you. If I was Emma and read this I would feel a sense relief that I dodged a bullet tbh. 

I climb every weekend. People bail all the time. Things come up, people back out, cold feet happen etc.. I have learned it's better to just say "okay, no problem" not dwell on it and move on with my backup plan. I just don't think public shaming is a good avenue and is probably going to land you less climbing partners in the future. Especially if your main source for new partners is on Mountain Project. Just a thought though.

Either way good luck out there and I hope your next trip to the valley goes better!

Cheers!

Chronic Rob wrote:

Man that really sucks sorry about your Valley trip! People ghosting or bailing can be rough.

Although I sympathize with you I think the bigger red flag here is the public name dropping and shaming of people who flake/ghost you. If I was Emma and read this I would feel a sense relief that I dodged a bullet tbh. 

I climb every weekend. People bail all the time. Things come up, people back out, cold feet happen etc.. I have learned it's better to just say "okay, no problem" not dwell on it and move on with my backup plan. I just don't think public shaming is a good avenue and is probably going to land you less climbing partners in the future. Especially if your main source for new partners is on Mountain Project. Just a thought though.

Either way good luck out there and I hope your next trip to the valley goes better!

Cheers!

Costs me between one and two hundred dollars just to drive to Yosemite. Sending a cancellation text is probably the easiest thing a person can do. Shits just disrespectful.

How often do you travel 4-5 hours to climb and your partner stands you up? Full no-contact. We’re not talking about cancelling the day before.

I think mentioning her first name is hardly an overreaction. Guess we have to agree to disagree.