Half Dome's Snake Dike is being retrobolted - get involved!

Yukon Cornelius wrote:

Which would be fine, because unlike adding bolts, riding an e-bike doesn't affect anyone else

One person riding an EMB doesn't affect anyone else, but when trail traffic quadruples because e-bikes make it easy, then it sure does affect others' experience. 

Brandon R wrote:

One person riding an EMB doesn't affect anyone else, but when trail traffic quadruples because e-bikes make it easy, then it sure does affect others' experience. 

Dust, erosion and lots and lots of idiots. Having 50 miles of gravel trails nearby in a NP really attracts that type, similarly to Yosemite attracting bolt happy power drillers

As of Saturday evening, June 13th, all of Sloan's bolts have been dealt with.  Only bolts that have been there for decades with thousands of safe ascents remain.  The first pitch bolts are still protruding around a 1/4" so those would be nice to have filed down and our counter punched into the rock if Sloan's holes are deep enough.  The bolts that were removed from the second and third pitch are flat with the granite.  It would be nice to counter punch those and camouflage them with some granitic gravel.  

Regarding the larger issue at hand, whether routes should be potentially dangerous or bolted into Disneyland rides, I think it's important to educate the younger generation as to where we "older folk" are coming from on this boldness issue.  After all, most new climbers arrive to Yosemite (or wherever) after learning how to climb in the gym, where everything is tightly bolted and the entire experience is devoid of as much danger as the lawyers can remove.  It's a very sterile and safe environment.  Excessive bolting is the norm,  and any chance of changing less experienced minds needs to be handled diplomatically; however...

It’s not gatekeeping.  It’s not a nostalgic view of the past.  It’s an educated wholistic view of where our sport came from.   It’s a realization that climbing can be serious and difficult and hazardous.  We are climbing the exact routes that folk ascended many decades ago.  When you do that mantle on the last pitch of The Nutcracker, you’re dead pointing for the same jug that Robbins grabbed in 1967.  When you struggle up that slippery chimney on Royal Arch’s first pitch it’s the exact moves that Morgan Harris climbed 90 years ago…yes, 90 years ago.  The difference is you have leg loops on your harness.  You have cams, chalk, sticky rubber and cell phone reception at all times.  You have detailed topos and YouTube videos of each move.  You have a belay device and a marked trail to the route’s base.  You have a rock climbing gym five miles from your house where you can train and hone your technique.  You have YOSAR ready to rescue your ass if you make a misstep.
And yet with all these comforts, safety measures and advantages, many still whine about safety and want to desecrate the rock and eliminate the adventure by adding bolts to routes that climbers have been safely navigating for decades. What an embarrassingly entitled and ignorant viewpoint.

‘There is a danger in climbing: ability comes too quickly, experience too slowly.’

The indoor climber who can crush 5.12 on plastic needs the modesty to admit they need to start outside at a much much lower level. It’s a completely different game. There are many critical skills to learn and a history to absorb in order to realize that the beautiful cliffs and domes and peaks we climb outside are not to be equated with the meaningless, ephemeral Etch a Sketch routes of the indoor gym.
Learn the history of the outdoor area you’re wanting to climb in.  It will inspire you to be a better climber.

It’s probably unlikely but Sloan could start on a path to redemption by walking up there and patching the holes. 

Jim Hornibrook wrote:

As of Saturday evening, June 13th, all of Sloan's bolts have been dealt with.  Only bolts that have been there for decades with thousands of safe ascents remain.  The first pitch bolts are still protruding around a 1/4" so those would be nice to have filed down and our counter punched into the rock if Sloan's holes are deep enough.  The bolts that were removed from the second and third pitch are flat with the granite.  It would be nice to counter punch those and camouflage them with some granitic gravel.  

Regarding the larger issue at hand, whether routes should be potentially dangerous or bolted into Disneyland rides, I think it's important to educate the younger generation as to where we "older folk" are coming from on this boldness issue.  After all, most new climbers arrive to Yosemite (or wherever) after learning how to climb in the gym, where everything is tightly bolted and the entire experience is devoid of as much danger as the lawyers can remove.  It's a very sterile and safe environment.  Excessive bolting is the norm,  and any chance of changing less experienced minds needs to be handled diplomatically; however...

It’s not gatekeeping.  It’s not a nostalgic view of the past.  It’s an educated wholistic view of where our sport came from.   It’s a realization that climbing can be serious and difficult and hazardous.  We are climbing the exact routes that folk ascended many decades ago.  When you do that mantle on the last pitch of The Nutcracker, you’re dead pointing for the same jug that Robbins grabbed in 1967.  When you struggle up that slippery chimney on Royal Arch’s first pitch it’s the exact moves that Morgan Harris climbed 90 years ago…yes, 90 years ago.  The difference is you have leg loops on your harness.  You have cams, chalk, sticky rubber and cell phone reception at all times.  You have detailed topos and YouTube videos of each move.  You have a belay device and a marked trail to the route’s base.  You have a rock climbing gym five miles from your house where you can train and hone your technique.  You have YOSAR ready to rescue your ass if you make a misstep.
And yet with all these comforts, safety measures and advantages, many still whine about safety and want to desecrate the rock and eliminate the adventure by adding bolts to routes that climbers have been safely navigating for decades. What an embarrassingly entitled and ignorant viewpoint.

‘There is a danger in climbing: ability comes too quickly, experience too slowly.’

The indoor climber who can crush 5.12 on plastic needs the modesty to admit they need to start outside at a much much lower level. It’s a completely different game. There are many critical skills to learn and a history to absorb in order to realize that the beautiful cliffs and domes and peaks we climb outside are not to be equated with the meaningless, ephemeral Etch a Sketch routes of the indoor gym.
Learn the history of the outdoor area you’re wanting to climb in.  It will inspire you to be a better climber.

The thing is too, Jim, is there are still countless opportunities for those who want new tightly bolted and easy routes. They simply have to get out there and put them up themselves.

No one is holding you back boys and girls. Get motivated and stop asking others to do it for you.

No one is entitled to demand that classics be bolted into an all-access pass via-ferrata regardless of the leader's experience and skill. If you made Snake Dike a sport climb not only would it be destroyed, but I predict it would be the site of countless accidents as the even less prepared attempt a serious and remote undertaking.

The whole point of remote routes is that "the leader must not fall". If you think there is a chance you will fall on 5.3 knobs find someone else to lead it for you. As it stands, it challenges the new leader to friction and runouts...this is a good thing as that ensures the unprepared will not attempt the route.

Jim Hornibrook wrote:

... whether routes should be potentially dangerous or bolted into Disneyland rides, I think it's important to educate the younger generation as to where we "older folk" are coming from on this boldness issue.

Jim:

- Thanks for the update;

- I love your wording, which is so apt: "... or bolted into Disneyland rides;"

- Maybe it's just me, but EVERY YOUNGER CLIMBER that I hang out with/climb with shares the first ascent ethic that's been discussed in this thread. Literally tens of climbers in their 20s and 30s who I've climbed with, talked with and even done FAs with, all share that ethic (and all of those I've talked to about this Snake Dike issue are appalled).

Framing this (or allowing it to be framed) as a "young versus old" issue plays into a narrative adopted by a few weak minds. It's absolutely not about age. It may be about levels of experience, or amount of risk acceptance or about some other factors. But it most definitely is not an age issue.

EDIT: If some smart-ass out there wants to challenge me on the numbers of climbers of that age that I claim to climb with? I'll make a large money wager that I can list that many (by first names). What's the old saying, put your money where your mouth is?

John Tuttle wrote:

The thing is too, Jim, is there are still countless opportunities for those who want new tightly bolted and easy routes.

Jim and John, having been pretty active in at least two first ascent communities for years now, I'll point out what you two already know: creating new, well protected routes has become the norm.

Very, very few routes are going up these days that aren't well protected. Whether a route is all bolts, all gear or mixed bolts and gear, most first ascentionists nowadays make sure the their climbs are well protected. Even at Pinnacles National Park, where we put up routes on lead by hand drilling, well protected is the overwhelming normal now.

And this is great; it creates lots and lots of options for all types of climbers. It also strengthens the argument for leaving existing routes the hell alone (imagine how different this discussion would be if Snake Dike was the "only" 5.7 slab route available in all of the central part of the Sierra Nevada, for example).

There are literally hundreds of well protected routes all over the place now. This is one of the reasons I use the word "entitled" when I refer to those who "need" Snake Dike to be retro-bolted. "Entitled," as in there are hundreds of well protected routes to choose from but no, they've got to have this exact one with exactly the level of protection they want.

Jim Hornibrook wrote:

As of Saturday evening, June 13th, all of Sloan's bolts have been dealt with.  Only bolts that have been there for decades with thousands of safe ascents remain.  

I don't think that's what Sloan had in mind when he said "get involved!".   

Hats off Jim Hornibrook.
Your words of simple logic could not have been said better. 

Brad Young:

I agree that it's an over simplification to bracket this as "old generation versus young generation."  There are plenty of exceptions.  Indeed, Darion, one of my acolytes, who did the hard work of removing Sloan's bolts from SD, is at the tender age of 30, very OG in his ethics.  

I may have a larger sample set than you, climbing in the Bay Area where there are thousands of climbers in the gyms.  And I've seen things evolve (devolve?) over the decades having started climbing in '79.  Statistically, I'll maintain that "danger management" has lessened and completely disappeared for most of the climbers who move from the gym to outdoor climbing.  Climbers fixate on the rating difficulty, but want to eliminate the risk from climbs.  And of course, I and my friends do all we can to mitigate the risk when we climb.  But that risk mitigation comes from self control, climbing ability, and frankly technological advantages as opposed to dumbing down the route's inherent risk.  

I try to instill this respect in the folk I mentor, and it sounds like you're being successful in that endeavor as well.  It's important for experienced climbers to teach those who want to transfer from indoor to outdoor climbing in a way that keeps them safe while preserving and respecting the natural world.  It's a symbiotic venture.  I can instill technical knowledge, local lore, and a wholistic view of climbing ethics, while the young folk I mentor keep the psyche alive.  It's cool having a young person see Yosemite Falls for the first time and get super excited.  It keeps me from getting jaded after the 500th time of seeing it.  As well, in a few more years, I'm gonna need those young pups to drive my old butt up to the mountains :)

Royal Robbins' wise words still echo through time

Better to raise ourselves than to lower the climb.

Hi Jim, don’t take this as a call out or anything but a question, but Fail Falling has reported that it looks like there are still a bunch of extra bolts on pitch 3 and maybe more. Do you have first hand info or are you passing along info?  It seems like possibly if there are still bolts that shouldn’t be there, it’s time to formulate a plan and get this job done. I’m no expert at chopping or patching bolts but I know my way around and could possibly find time to help. Damn, what a shitty situation. 

Jim Hornibrook wrote:

As of Saturday evening, June 13th, all of Sloan's bolts have been dealt with.  Only bolts that have been there for decades with thousands of safe ascents remain.  The first pitch bolts are still protruding around a 1/4" so those would be nice to have filed down and our counter punched into the rock if Sloan's holes are deep enough.  The bolts that were removed from the second and third pitch are flat with the granite.  It would be nice to counter punch those and camouflage them with some granitic gravel.  

Regarding the larger issue at hand, whether routes should be potentially dangerous or bolted into Disneyland rides, I think it's important to educate the younger generation as to where we "older folk" are coming from on this boldness issue.  After all, most new climbers arrive to Yosemite (or wherever) after learning how to climb in the gym, where everything is tightly bolted and the entire experience is devoid of as much danger as the lawyers can remove.  It's a very sterile and safe environment.  Excessive bolting is the norm,  and any chance of changing less experienced minds needs to be handled diplomatically; however...

It’s not gatekeeping.  It’s not a nostalgic view of the past.  It’s an educated wholistic view of where our sport came from.   It’s a realization that climbing can be serious and difficult and hazardous.  We are climbing the exact routes that folk ascended many decades ago.  When you do that mantle on the last pitch of The Nutcracker, you’re dead pointing for the same jug that Robbins grabbed in 1967.  When you struggle up that slippery chimney on Royal Arch’s first pitch it’s the exact moves that Morgan Harris climbed 90 years ago…yes, 90 years ago.  The difference is you have leg loops on your harness.  You have cams, chalk, sticky rubber and cell phone reception at all times.  You have detailed topos and YouTube videos of each move.  You have a belay device and a marked trail to the route’s base.  You have a rock climbing gym five miles from your house where you can train and hone your technique.  You have YOSAR ready to rescue your ass if you make a misstep.
And yet with all these comforts, safety measures and advantages, many still whine about safety and want to desecrate the rock and eliminate the adventure by adding bolts to routes that climbers have been safely navigating for decades. What an embarrassingly entitled and ignorant viewpoint.

‘There is a danger in climbing: ability comes too quickly, experience too slowly.’

The indoor climber who can crush 5.12 on plastic needs the modesty to admit they need to start outside at a much much lower level. It’s a completely different game. There are many critical skills to learn and a history to absorb in order to realize that the beautiful cliffs and domes and peaks we climb outside are not to be equated with the meaningless, ephemeral Etch a Sketch routes of the indoor gym.
Learn the history of the outdoor area you’re wanting to climb in.  It will inspire you to be a better climber.

Firstly, I’m all for restoring SD to the climb it was and should be.

But just for clarification’s sake - it sounds like, from your wording, a hack (Sloan) installed a bunch of shitty bolts on a classic climb that didn’t need em and then an angry hack or hacks did a hack removal job instead of taking the time to remove the bolts properly and now the marred rock with permanent metal trash embedded in it will forever remind every party of the egos involved on both sides?

E MuuD wrote:

This whole thing is hilarious, Y'all are full of it...

"Get the approval of the FA"

Okay - got the approval
"No no... gotta get consensus"
... turns out, just whatever suits your opinion and ego really. 

 

Exactly. Whining-fests like this are the worst part of climbing. A member of the FA party called for new bolts, he was too lazy/cheap to do it himself, nobody else stepped up to the plate, somebody finally did, in his own style, which is fine, and now everyone has their panties in a bundle. I'd guess 99.99% of people complaining have never spent the time, energy, and money developing/maintaining/retro-bolting a route - haven't contributed to the larger climbing community at all. I'll take a 100 people freely adding bolts to make routes safe than 1 person whining from the sidelines while not contributing in any real way. Cheers Erik, thanks for doing this!

Erik Lund wrote:

Exactly. Whining-fests like this are the worst part of climbing. A member of the FA party called for new bolts, he was too lazy/cheap to do it himself, nobody else stepped up to the plate, somebody finally did, in his own style, which is fine, and now everyone has their panties in a bundle. I'd guess 99.99% of people complaining have never spent the time, energy, and money developing/maintaining/retro-bolting a route - haven't contributed to the larger climbing community at all. I'll take a 100 people freely adding bolts to make routes safe than 1 person whining from the sidelines while not contributing in any real way. Cheers Erik, thanks for doing this!

I do not appreciate the armchair complaints about the imperfect bolt removal.  Sloan powerdrilled in those 3/8 buttonheads intentionally to impede clean removal with no power tools.  So you should be complaining to sloan.   It sounds like some of the bolt heads broke when pulling, so the hangar is gone but some of the bolt shaft remains.  This can be removed with a hack saw, files or a small cutoff wheel.  Complainers should feel free to help fix up any remaining issues.

Erik Lund wrote:

Exactly. Whining-fests like this are the worst part of climbing. A member of the FA party called for new bolts, he was too lazy/cheap to do it himself, nobody else stepped up to the plate, somebody finally did, in his own style, which is fine, and now everyone has their panties in a bundle. I'd guess 99.99% of people complaining have never spent the time, energy, and money developing/maintaining/retro-bolting a route - haven't contributed to the larger climbing community at all. I'll take a 100 people freely adding bolts to make routes safe than 1 person whining from the sidelines while not contributing in any real way. Cheers Erik, thanks for doing this!

Well, Let's see, the FA in question is Eric Beck who is at least 80+ years old. So, number one, nice pot shot at an elder statesman of Yosemite Climbing as being lazy and cheap. Sad.

Number 2: There is no evidence whatsoever that the route is unsafe. One serious injury in 60 years by an off-route beginner does not a dangerous route make. The "safest" and most popular routes in Yosemite have seen more accidents because even less prepared climbers attempt them or advanced climbers fall victim to complacency.

Number 3: You are applauding someone who has illegally power drilled these bolts. Good Job encouraging illegal behavior that endangers our right to place new anchors (by hand) in Yosemite.

Number 4: If you don't like it, stop whinging yourself and open your eyes to the abortion that Sloan is responsible for creating (glued in galvanized buttonheads). See the images in the Half Dome has fallen thread.

do we know for sure the bolts were power drilled? or is that conjecture based on timing and number of bolts and past history?

ilya f wrote:

do we know for sure the bolts were power drilled? or is that conjecture based on timing and number of bolts and past history?

No. Yes.

Brad Young wrote:

Very, very few routes are going up these days that aren't well protected. Whether a route is all bolts, all gear or mixed bolts and gear, most first ascentionists nowadays make sure the their climbs are well protected. 

Maybe in sport areas, but many of us just like to climb and don't really care if others repeat our routes.  The idea of spending hours bolting to create a route for others is not all that appealing.  My personal ethic is to leave no trace (or at least as little as possible).

Daniel Shively wrote:

Hi Jim, don’t take this as a call out or anything but a question, but Fail Falling has reported that it looks like there are still a bunch of extra bolts on pitch 3 and maybe more. Do you have first hand info or are you passing along info?  It seems like possibly if there are still bolts that shouldn’t be there, it’s time to formulate a plan and get this job done. I’m no expert at chopping or patching bolts but I know my way around and could possibly find time to help. Damn, what a shitty situation. 

Maybe Jim meant to say Saturday June 20 instead of Saturday June 13?  Then that would be after FF findings on June 19.