Half Dome's Snake Dike is being retrobolted - get involved!

Heed Warren Harding’s authority, made up by some rando who never met him, about adding bolts to make long-existing routes less scary, or else your trad climber minds must be infested with hobgoblins of conformity! lol

Yes and it’s been established that trad climbers physically can’t skip bolts if they’re there. It physically changes the nature of the climb.

Adam Byra wrote:

If Harding was alive today he’d be partying with Sloan, talking about what a bunch of conformist losers we’ve all become. RIP Warren. RIP climbing. 

In all his time in Yosemite, did Harding ever deface someone else’s route by adding bolts? I don’t think so but correct me if I’m wrong… 

This isn’t about conformity or authority. It’s about basic respect for a classic climb’s character and preserving it for future generations to enjoy. There are tens of thousands of grid bolted single digit climbs for gym enthusiasts to enjoy. Maybe stick to those?

Adam Byra wrote:

If Harding was alive today he’d be partying with Sloan, talking about what a bunch of conformist losers we’ve all become. RIP Warren. RIP climbing. 

LOL. More cluelessness. Harding said it was weak that someone put a chicken bolt in Texas Flake.

And considering Sloan added more chicken bolts to the Nose I doubt he’d have any respect for him. 

Mason Young wrote: My point is that there is a tremendous need for accessible and aesthetic beginner climbs in our national parks for the current masses of climbers. As was said previously, there’s nothing stopping someone putting up a new sport route on either side of snake dike, or anywhere else. 

thank goodness dozens (hundreds?) of these routes already exist, in yosemite valley/tuolumne alone, not even counting eastside, tahoe, donner, etc.

 ....Everyone knows that, for better or worse, this route would be used by many more people if it was better protected.

umm.... does anyone else want to explain it to him, or should I?

Adam Byra wrote:

Yes and it’s been established that trad climbers physically can’t skip bolts if they’re there. It physically changes the nature of the climb.

You’re learning! Proud of you 

Mason Young wrote:

The old concept that the first person to climb something “owns” it in perpetuity isn’t realistic. It’s public land, the government owns it and manages it for the benefit of the public. They could decide tomorrow that the liability and management risk created by rock climbing is incongruent with the greater good in the park and ban climbing altogether. Just because someone was the first to touch it doesn’t mean they own the it.

A bigger issue is Snake Dike was never developed as a route. The FA party was just exploring. They found a path up installing the bare minimum for the exploration. Mostly just belay’s. After the fact they announced it could be developed into a ultra classic  route but that never happened.

You should read this thread. There’s many inaccurate things you wrote that are already explained. You can still have an opinion that bolts should be added but it should be based on facts not misunderstanding of the situation.

But just to address few above.

It’s not that the FA owns the route, it’s that we respect the way the climb was done so future climbers get that same challenge.

Snake Dike was developed as a route. After the first ascent they gave Steve Roper permission to add bolts. He put a second bolt at each anchor and on average one protection bolt per pitch in the first 6 pitches. That’s the way it’s been for 60 years. And had thousands of ascents. Part of the appeal of the route for many people is the mental challenge. . There have been no serious incidents due to the run outs. It IS an ultra classic route now. 

Mason Young wrote:

Ofc thats true.

Just because someone protects a trad route a certain way doesn’t mean that you have to protect it the same way either.

My point is that there is a tremendous need for accessible and aesthetic beginner climbs in our national parks for the current masses of climbers. As was said previously, there’s nothing stopping someone putting up a new sport route on either side of snake dike, or anywhere else. 

The fact remains that Snake Dike was never developed, in spite of the first ascent party thinking it should be, and it could be a great candidate for this. Everyone knows that, for better or worse, this route would be used by many more people if it was better protected.

You are wrong. Snake Dike was developed. Fully developed. The FA party had a limited number of bolts and a limited amount of time which to hand drill. Because of those constraints they only placed bolts in the difficult sections and at belays because they thought the climbing would get even more difficult. It never did. The 2nd ascent party did add additional bolts as requested by the one of the first ascentionists at which point the route was finished. And has now been climbed by likely tens of thousands of people.

The route is already hammered by multiple parties climbing it everyday. It does not need more people. 

L Kap wrote:

There should be no guardrails or signage on steep mountain roads. The original road builders did it without guardrails and signage. Guardrails only mar the visual purity of the road. Okay, maybe some guardrails but only where the original road builders decided to put them, even if they had limited equipment with them at the time. If the original road builders don't go back and add more guardrails or signage within a year or two, the time limit for adding anything has expired. Trying to add more guardrails in places with death potential would spit upon the legacy of the road builders and rob every future traveler of the adventure. Drivers need to build up their skills and judgment for tackling steep mountain roads. If they're not up to the task of driving on steep mountain roads with insufficient guardrails, they can choose other roads. Assessing the potential to skid off the edge and die if there is rain or ice during time you'll be in transit is a sacred part of the adventure. The fact that legendary mountain roads have not seen a bunch of deaths means that the scariness is working to keep away unworthy people. Anyone who even thinks of adding limited new guardrails is an idiot who doesn't truly understand the history and ethics of driving. People who tear down every single unsanctioned guardrail are community heroes.

ETA - Even if they leave a bunch of bashed trash on the side of the road to try to deter more guardrail-building.

You just shot your own argument in the foot. Studies have shown that too much signage, or sometimes even signage at all, makes mountain roads MORE dangerous, not less. Without signage, people slow down and actually drive the road as it comes to them, meaning they have to pay attention and figure it out instead of gaining a false sense of security from the signage, and pushing the envelope a little further. My reference is the book Traffic by Tom Vanderbilt and there are sources cited.

Adam Byra wrote:

Yes and it’s been established that trad climbers physically can’t skip bolts if they’re there. It physically changes the nature of the climb.

Not physically, mentally.
And stop trolling. 

Adam Byra wrote:

Yes and it’s been established that trad climbers physically can’t skip bolts if they’re there. It physically changes the nature of the climb.

Two Years After Broken Back, Molly Mitchell Returns and Sends 

James Arnold wrote:

Two Years After Broken Back, Molly Mitchell Returns and Sends 

Game, set, match

Skipping bolts vs. being forced to manage the runouts are so drastically different. I would compare it to climbing a route with your eyes shut vs. actually being blind on a pitch … it would be easier to have the option to open your eyes if you got a little scared, wouldn’t it? Not exactly the same thing? 

Also, there is a difference in style, commitment, and logistics between headpointing a 5.14 bolted single pitch on gear versus onsighting an 800-foot 5.7 multi-pitch … obviously. I think Molly’s ascent is very dope, but it’s a poor “See, everything should have bolts!” argument.

L Kap wrote:

There should be no guardrails or signage on steep mountain roads. The original road builders did it without guardrails and signage. Guardrails only mar the visual purity of the road. Okay, maybe some guardrails but only where the original road builders decided to put them, even if they had limited equipment with them at the time. If the original road builders don't go back and add more guardrails or signage within a year or two, the time limit for adding anything has expired. Trying to add more guardrails in places with death potential would spit upon the legacy of the road builders and rob every future traveler of the adventure. Drivers need to build up their skills and judgment for tackling steep mountain roads. If they're not up to the task of driving on steep mountain roads with insufficient guardrails, they can choose other roads. Assessing the potential to skid off the edge and die if there is rain or ice during time you'll be in transit is a sacred part of the adventure. The fact that legendary mountain roads have not seen a bunch of deaths means that the scariness is working to keep away unworthy people. Anyone who even thinks of adding limited new guardrails is an idiot who doesn't truly understand the history and ethics of driving. People who tear down every single unsanctioned guardrail are community heroes.

ETA - Even if they leave a bunch of bashed trash on the side of the road to try to deter more guardrail-building.

Is this a purely recreational road, that does not take you from point A to point B but purely exists for the recreational experience of being on the road? And only people who want to enjoy that specific experience need to go on it, no one else could end up there because they're just trying to drive home, it's purely 100% an optional experience? And the focus required by the lack of guardrails is a huge part, some would say the defining part of the experience? And all the beta and route descriptions and guide books that reference this road are very clear about the lack of guardrails and the experience driving this road entails? And the road has seen many thousands of travelers enjoy this experience without experiencing any negative impacts due to lack of guardrails? 

Then yes, I agree completely, no need to add guardrails. 

Andrew Richardson wrote:

Skipping bolts vs. being forced to manage the runouts are so drastically different. I would compare it to climbing a route with your eyes shut vs. actually being blind on a pitch … it would be easier to have the option to open your eyes if you got a little scared, wouldn’t it? Not exactly the same thing? 

Also, there is a difference in style, commitment, and logistics between headpointing a 5.14 bolted single pitch on gear versus onsighting an 800-foot 5.7 multi-pitch … obviously. I think Molly’s ascent is very dope, but it’s a poor “See, everything should have bolts!” argument.

Certainly not making an argument that everything should have bolts added, not sure if that's what you are reading into it...just responding to the earlier idea presented about trad that in my book and experience is essentially incorrect.

I went through a phase of green-pointing routes around Donner when I was much younger and the bolt wars were in full swing. Several routes that had gone on gear previously sprouted bolts and this made me very angry. So I put them down without clipping bolts. My experience was that there was no way in hell I was going to clip the bolts.

 I've had this debate numerous times with people that feel like "you can just clip bolts" but for me, I would have never even thought of that, risking a broken back or worse for myself. Furthermore, I enjoyed crowing about my "clean style" to anyone that would listen afterwards but left the bolts...who knows, maybe I should have taken that stand....???

I think that people who claim "you can just clip a bolt and bail" are physically correct, but in my opinion do not understand mental fortitude and what it means to greenpoint. As with many things in climbing, YMMV.

James Arnold wrote:

Certainly not making an argument that everything should have bolts added, not sure if that's what you are reading into it...just responding to the earlier idea presented about trad that in my book and experience is essentially incorrect.

I went through a phase of green-pointing routes around Donner when I was much younger and the bolt wars were in full swing. Several routes that had gone on gear previously sprouted bolts and this made me very angry. So I put them down without clipping bolts. My experience was that there was no way in hell I was going to clip the bolts.

 I've had this debate numerous times with people that feel like "you can just clip bolts" but for me, I would have never even thought of that, risking a broken back or worse for myself. Furthermore, I enjoyed crowing about my "clean style" to anyone that would listen afterwards but left the bolts...who knows, maybe I should have taken that stand....???

I think that people who claim "you can just clip a bolt and bail" are physically correct, but in my opinion do not understand mental fortitude and what it means to greenpoint. As with many things in climbing, YMMV.

I wasn't aiming that comment at you specifically James, I know ya well enough! "Just don't clip the bolts" is a sentiment keeps popping up like a weed in this thread, so my comment was more aimed at those folks. 

Shoot me a text if you'd like to climb while you're in NorCal btw!

Sounds great, I'm not here for too too much longer, but I'll send you a msg.

 I think my view is weirdly tinted through the lens of learning from guys that were pretty hardcore about things like stance drilling, no dogging a la Bachar '86, who would egg you on even when things were pretty hairball. Later they disavowed me when I started hanging with the South Shore boys at places like Cave Rock. NO KOOKS.

Just skip clips? Chop 'em all? Fit even more on there somehow? Only you can RESTORE HALF DOME.

They can’t skip bolts because if they fall and gets hurt on a trad route they were being heroic, but if they got hurt skipping bolts everyone would think they’re dumb. Some people just can’t climb 5.12 so they have to stick to their heroic 5.7 trad climbs. It’s why the Europeans were so much better climbers back in the 90s. If Yosemite was bolted everyone could get in 30 pitches every day AND climb as hard as the Europeans. 

I don’t climb 5.12. Never have, never will. I do, though, have great respect for those who can climb that hard—and I’m captivated by all those videos of Ondra, Janja, Sharma et al sending those incredibly difficult sport routes and boulders. I think it’s awesome. I go sport climbing, too, and love it (but “easy” grades).

There are all kinds of climbs for all kinds of tastes. I like that a classic NON-beginner route like Snake Dike exists and hope it will be there as it was for future generations. There are plenty of awesome moderate sport bolted multipitch routes around the country if that is what you want. SD is not one and shouldn’t be one (IMHO).

(And… don’t you secretly love it when your 5.12 sport climbing buddy shits his/her pants the first time you take him/her up a 5.7 multipitch and/or alpine route?).  Just some friendly snark here… ; )