Half Dome's Snake Dike is being retrobolted - get involved!

Adam Byrawrote:

Someone invent a bolt that trad climbers can somehow ignore when they pass it, so they can still climb trad and tell everyone about how run out their climb was. Normally when someone trad climbs a bolted route everyone thinks they’re dumb and it’s not a real accomplishment. But maybe there could be a label on the bolts “for sport climbing only”, so the trad climbers won’t have to feel dumb skipping bolts and pretend they’re not there.

I always hear sport climbers say “ignore the bolt if you want to climb trad” and trad climbers say “go find your own Yosemite if you want to place bolts”, both of which seem unlikely to happen. Maybe “for sport climbing only” labels would be a good solution for both sides?

Climbers don't have a 'right' to a 'safer' route than the first ascensionists put up.  It is their route!  Either enjoy it as it is, or climb something else.  If someone wants to come later and add bolts, it is like spraying graffiti all over their artwork.  If the FA party gives the OK to add hardware, then it is their decision alone.  Then again, I come from the '70s "clean climbing' era when pin scars were damaging the rock.  Now, it is tens of thousands of bolts (placed to last for decades) damaging the rock.

Rav Khadgewrote:

As someone supporting chopping the unnecessary bolts, please at least leave a number of bolts unchopped that is consistent with the FA's request. 

I understand the urge to chop all of Sloan's bolts out of spite, but I think we shouldn't go against the FA's request. I think it makes the anti-retrobolting crowd look bad to chop even the bolts that the FA requested be added. Makes people more likely to side with Sloan when the bolt choppers won't even respect the FA here. 

Also, I know there are different opinions about safety concerns, but I think it's worth considering that if/when another serious accident happens on Snake Dike, it will quite likely get big media attention and public attention will definitely be very negative towards the bolt choppers. It'll be worse if the bolt choppers look uncompromising, even against the specific and long running request from the FA for bolts to be added. Maybe you don't care what the public thinks, but sufficiently negative attention is gonna risk policy makers stepping in and making our lives harder. 

Respectfully, to Eric Beck, I would like to find out if he knows that the route has had thousands of ascents for that one serious accident?

Does he have any experience on the route in modern shoes and cams as compared to his day of kletter shoes? It has gotten easier, not harder in time.

I am not stridently opposed to any additional bolts, BUT, the route is already crowded. How can that be a broken thing that needs fixing?

BTW the national media doesn't say add more safety when the latest tragedy occurs on the cables...

Find the chalk arrow on pitch one...

Rav Khadgewrote:

As someone supporting chopping the unnecessary bolts, please at least leave a number of bolts unchopped that is consistent with the FA's request. 

I understand the urge to chop all of Sloan's bolts out of spite, but I think we shouldn't go against the FA's request. I think it makes the anti-retrobolting crowd look bad to chop even the bolts that the FA requested be added. Makes people more likely to side with Sloan when the bolt choppers won't even respect the FA here. 

It’s been 60 years since the FA. If the FA team felt extra bolts were so critical, they could have added them long ago. At some point a classic route is owned by the community, not just the opinions of the first ascensionists, and snake dike is that. 

If it weren’t climbed much, or had a history of many accidents then for sure add some more, but genuinely what is the argument for adding any more? It has proven itself as safe enough, with its only bad accident being a route finding issue, not a runout issue, and in its historical state it draws people from all over the world. Why alter that at all?

John Tuttlewrote:

Respectfully, to Eric Beck, I would like to find out if he knows that the route has had thousands of ascents for that one serious accident?

Does he have any experience on the route in modern shoes and cams as compared to his day of kletter shoes? It has gotten easier, not harder in time.

I am not stridently opposed any additional bolts, BUT, the route is already crowded. How can that be a broken thing that needs fixing?

BTW the national media doesn't say add more safety when the latest tragedy occurs on the cables...

I can definitely tell you that every time a tragedy happens on the cables, I hear people (usually nonclimbers) talk about increasing restrictions, adding requirements, closing "dangerous" trails etc. 

This kind of attention is very bad for us. Media will absolutely go for a story about how unreasonable, bolt chopping lunatics in Yosemite directly lead to a serious accident. Let's not feed the uncompromising lunatics narrative more than we need to. 

Rav Khadgewrote:

...you gotta understand that the average person thinks bolt choppers are lunatics. I hear people talking about it in the climbing gym now.

Hmm, I believe the lunatic is the guy that keeps using a power drill in Yosemite wilderness and defaces one of the most iconic routes in the Valley.  Half Dome is not a climbing gym Rav.

Gloweringwrote:

So rather than my previous idea, what about a chalk arrow? (ala Midnight Lightning)  It would easily be washed away. But also fun to draw on there when you make an ascent. No permanent alteration and perhaps more effective at preventing future issues than any bolts.

Three skills are required to climb most routes:

1) The necessary technical/physical skill set

2) Mental focus to run it out when necessary

3) Route-finding skills

When climbing at one's limit, you better have all three!

Alex Mankouskiwrote:

Have the bolts been chopped yet?

See this post on page 18 of the Half Dome Has Fallen thread:

"I have received word that up to the first bolt on P2, has been removed. 

The snake should have it's fangs again, by this weekend." - June 15, 2026 by Russ B

Continue reading to the 19th page for more context.

Rav Khadgewrote:

As someone supporting chopping the unnecessary bolts, please at least leave a number of bolts unchopped that is consistent with the FA's request. 

I understand the urge to chop all of Sloan's bolts out of spite, but I think we shouldn't go against the FA's request. I think it makes the anti-retrobolting crowd look bad to chop even the bolts that the FA requested be added. Makes people more likely to side with Sloan when the bolt choppers won't even respect the FA here. 

Also, I know there are different opinions about safety concerns, but I think it's worth considering that if/when another serious accident happens on Snake Dike, it will quite likely get big media attention and public attention will definitely be very negative towards the bolt choppers. It'll be worse if the bolt choppers look uncompromising, even against the specific and long running request from the FA for bolts to be added. Maybe you don't care what the public thinks, but sufficiently negative attention is gonna risk policy makers stepping in and making our lives harder. 

I'm not opposed to chopping unnecessary bolts, but you gotta understand that the average person thinks bolt choppers are lunatics. I hear people talking about it in the climbing gym now. It's gonna be so much worse if an accident in the next couple years makes national headlines. 

2/3rds of the FA team aren't here to weight in. 

The 'average person' has no clue what bolts are or what Snake Dike is. 

Gym climbers? Who cares what they think? I hang in a private climbing gym with many climbers 1/3rd my age. Many of them have never climbed outdoors, on actual rock, or in the mountains. The majority of them have never lead a rock climb, let alone a trad rock climb. I'm not characterizing all gym climbers, but as a far as climber demographics gym exclusive climbers are pretty much ignorant and lacking any experience or history with these issues. 

OTOH Valley bolt choppers were/are ALWAYS held in very highest regard. They're the people willing to take responsibility for preserving the character of the climbing and the traditions that made the Valley what it is. 

When someone alters a classic route by adding unnecessary bolts, those committed to the route's original vision often act quickly to remove them. Some chump gets scared and instead of backing off defaces a classic route by placing a chicken bolt (or seven chicken bolts like Sloan has done) and within a few days someone - out of a sense of duty, honor, and commitment to the history and community - goes up there ASAP and chops it. They do so not out of spite or ignoble motives (there are exceptions, for ex. Robbins aborted chopfest on the Wall of Early Morning Light), but from a sense of stewardship, respect for history, and commitment to the climbing community. For many traditional climbers, those actions help maintain the integrity of the route and preserve the challenge and style that have defined Valley climbing for generations.

Gloweringwrote:

I think a little sign that may help prevent another person from being maimed at that spot where lots of people have gone off route isn’t going to “eviscerate the experience of climbing a trad route on Half Dome and irretrievably diminish - or eliminate - the experience of an on-sight ascent.” LOL. Now if someone said add bolts there for route finding (which some have) I’d think you’d have a point. 

You’re wrong.

Absolutely and without qualification, this would eviscerate the character of the ascent - whether climbed on-sight or otherwise.


Traditional climbing cannot be made idiot-proof, nor can its risks be engineered away. 

The idea that government-installed route-finding signage on Snake Dike is suddenly necessary so that climbers never have to encounter uncertainty is absurd.
 Uncertainty is an integral part of traditional climbing. 

The possibility of getting off route is not a defect; it is a normal and often defining feature of the experience, particularly on a large mountain route. Route-finding, judgment, decision-making, and self-reliance are not inconveniences to be eliminated—they are core components of the craft.
 

Climbers who disregard propriety and ignore protocol - those who lack the experience, route-finding ability, lead-climbing competence, judgment, and overall skill set required for a committing grade III 800-foot traditional climb on one of the world's most iconic mountains at the epicentral heart of worldwide traditional climbing - shouldn't be up there but they are still responsible for their own decisions. 

That expectation of personal responsibility is inseparable from both traditional climbing and mountaineering. Self-reliance is not an outdated relic; it is part of the ethos. 

To insist that a long-established mountain route be radically retrofitted to compensate for the limitations of the least qualified - or least prepared - climbers is fundamentally at odds with that ethos. Nanny-state notions of enforced safety, expectations of comfort and convenience shaped by controlled environments, and the risk-averse predictability of the climbing gym are all reference points ill-suited to the realities of the mountains.

And preparation has never been easier. There is an extraordinary and voluminous body of information available on Snake Dike: multiple generations of guidebooks (many featuring John Dill’s ubiquitous 1980s masterpiece essay, “Staying Alive,” as an introduction - required reading for anyone interested in thinking critically as a climber, and something that can genuinely help one stay alive, as opposed to encountering a few bolts and a sign in a state of unprepared ignorance), photos, detailed route descriptions, forum discussions, accident reports, videos, POV GoPro footage, step-by-step beta, Camp 4 and lodge café conversations, briefings and debriefings, and decades of accumulated knowledge documenting virtually every aspect of the climb in granular detail.

Most of this information simply did not exist for previous generations of climbers.

Any reasonably responsible climber has access to more than enough information, tools, topos, firsthand accounts, and detailed beta to climb Snake Dike successfully. Route-finding signs are unnecessary.

Eric Sloan is a fool. His route-eviscerating bolts are an abomination - they won't last long.

Yellow “carabiner” post where you leave the JMT. Yellow paint dots on rocks so you can always see the next one take you to the start of the route. Another post there, with a picture of the route, and an X you are here. Erik Sloan bolts bottom to top, all painted yellow, so the off route bolts don’t tempt anyone. “Belay here” placards at each belay station, with inflated (gym) grade for next pitch.

What else would you like? Mark the holds yellow too? Can do! Any other routes to fix up?

Now I need a go-fund-me, but I have never done it. So I NEED BETA, please!

Rav Khadgewrote:

As someone supporting chopping the unnecessary bolts, please at least leave a number of bolts unchopped that is consistent with the FA's request. 

The issue with your request is that if the new bolts are not removed in their entirety that gives the perp credibility. The perp should have no credibility and at this point has no credibility and should be sunned by the community for their actions. 

At the same time, Eric Beck's initial request "I would like to see five protection bolts where it is run out." was not unreasonable as most interpreted that to be an additional five total bolts over the whole of the route. Below is his most recent request:

• Pitch one (original): No additional bolts.
• Pitch two: No additional bolts. Currently there are two bolts
• Pitch three: Four to five protection bolts between anchors. Currently there are three bolts. 
• Pitch four: Four to five protection bolts between anchors.  Currently there is one bolt.
• Pitch five: Four to five protection bolts between anchors.  Currently there is one bolt.
• Pitch six: No additional bolts.
• Pitch seven: No additional bolts.
• Pitch eight: No additional bolts.
• 
  

Which is a bit more 7-10 bolts. The perp added 8 bolts just to the third pitch where 1 to 2 was requested.  That is why all of them must be removed. 

I guess empathy is not a requirement for climbers. It seems like it's not just the retro bolters who don't know the difference between ethics and style.

Gloweringwrote:

I guess empathy is not a requirement for climbers. It seems like it's not just the retro bolters who don't know the difference between ethics and style.

No, I think the thing about a chalk arrow is that it's not always going to be there.  And I do agree that at this point with all the information sources it seems nearly impossible to get off route.

But nothing prevents anyone from putting it there. I can think of worse insults like Sloan's bolting on pitch 3. What an abomination.

Gloweringwrote:

I think a little sign that may help prevent another person from being maimed at that spot where lots of people have gone off route isn’t going to “eviscerate the experience of climbing a trad route on Half Dome and irretrievably diminish - or eliminate - the experience of an on-sight ascent.” LOL. Now if someone said add bolts there for route finding (which some have) I’d think you’d have a point. 

Being lazy I randomly found a topo for Snake Dike. It pretty clearly shows the two bolt belay at the end of pitch two. Further, it very clearly shows the route going back left. Even further, it very clearly shows the bolt above the belay with "no" (the first bolt for Eye in the Sky, 5.10b).  Even further, it very clearly shows the bolt to the right of the belay with "no" (the first bolt for Snake Dance, 5.9+).

I looked at my nearly 40 year old 1987 Meyers & Reid Yosemite Climbs which shows all three routes. The Meyers yellow book, 1982 shows just Snake Dike and Snake Dance. For both the route is just as clear as the topo I randomly found. The SuperTopo guide is similar to the 1982 Meyers guide. There are Google Docs as well as Google Earth beta and topos.

My point being is that there is so much good accurate information out there, that route finding should not be a problem.

That said, I have been on climbs and not initially seen bolts until right close. I have even spotted a bolt but not initially noticed one in between. As one friend who did a variation FA of that is now the standard route said follow your noses and if it is harder than 5.7 you are off route. 

Route finding should not be a problem, yet it has been because the route literally takes a 90 degree turn there and multiple people have reported going off route. Personally I'd never get on something like that without knowing a critical fact like that, but I've seen all kinds of wacky things when climbing. I was descending from Washington Column and a party on the way up asked where the South Face started, I pointed it out and they mentioned they forgot the topo (and were going to do it anyway) I gave them a copy and they were so relieved. I've also semi-rescued people on several descents when I caught up to them and they were lost and had to follow me out. Weird shit happens.

Weird shit does happen.  And for some, it is when you've invested a lot to get where you are before finding an issue about beta, or gear, or whatever.  We hiked three miles mostly off trail to My Favorite Things for the first time and then realized we'd left all our beta on the top of the car.  Climbing that route would be a long day for us so not enough time to get the beta and still have enough time to climb it. 

So we pressed on with unwarranted hope we could find the start and then follow scant bolts and memory.  We actually found the start from memory in that sea of granite but were not confident enough in the find to start up it. We hiked part way back out and adventured up something unknown for five pitches with the understanding we'd probably need to bail back down using up gear - which we did.

There are not so many bail options on a dome like Snake Dike.  But one thing in its' favor on many days is there are usually multiple parties on it, most of whom have beta or know the route.

Bill Lawrywrote:

Weird shit does happen.  And for some, it is when you've invested a lot to get where you are before finding an issue about beta, or gear, or whatever.  

There are not so many bail options on a dome like Snake Dike.  But one thing in its' favor on many days is there are usually multiple parties on it, most of whom have beta or know the route.

For sure, and so if you forget the topo then it’s the climbers *decision* whether to press on without it. Climbing is all about decision making right.

For your route clearly the nature of the route meant it wasn’t a death wish to carry on without the topo. But if you’re going to do an R rated route known for its runouts and you forget the topo/it’s raining/you’re all gumbies and you decide to proceed anyway, then it’s you as a climber who has made the bad decision, it’s not the routes fault. And doesn’t mean the route needs equipping with something to save these edge cases. Sometimes the right decision is to bail. 

Siobhán Straverwrote:

For sure, and so if you forget the topo then it’s the climbers *decision* whether to press on without it. Climbing is all about decision making. For your route clearly the nature of the route meant it wasn’t a death wish to carry on without the topo. But if you’re going to do an R rated route known for its runouts and you forget the topo/it’s raining/you’re all gumbies and you decide to proceed anyway, then it’s you as a climber who has made the bad decision, it’s not the routes fault and doesn’t mean the route needs equipping with something to save these edge cases. Sometimes the right decision is to bail. 

If it needs to be said, my having empathy for weird shit happening doesn't translate to being pro-retro-bolt.  My position about these added bolts hasn't changed since page 1 of the "fallen" thread - remove the new bolts.

It is NOT necessarily a death wish to carry on up My Favorite Things without beta other than memory.  It depends on the mental skill set we bring and apply.  It can become just a different kind of adventure: closer to doing a first ascent than closely following someone else's directions. The key is to act accordingly at this kind of transition in a day like ours. Right?

I'll admonish any beginning trad leader to seek the mental skill set of the first ascensionist.  Because you are effectively on a kind of first ascent if (when) you unknowingly get off route.  Weird shit does happen. 

Edit: Another example of weird shit.  On our drive up to climb in the Sawtooth Range in 2020, there was a non-trivial earthquake around a nearby town.  A few days later, at the start of the summit pitch of SE Face of Warbonnet, the advertised 5.4 line of climbing was nowhere to be found - it was 5.9R as led by a party on the day prior; they suspected the earthquake dramatically changed the start of that pitch which crosses the huge remaining chockstone. We tried at first but slunk back to the belay to think things over whereupon we discovered a bypass that turned out to be an old but easy 5.4 way to the summit.  See P5 description.

 Who needs a topo, when you have basic reading comprehension and Roper's signature prose. This description has been on paper for 55 years now. Pretty clear about heading left to the other dike. No arrows needed. I just checked on Amazon and you can buy a used copy for less than $20 shipped.