Is having a thread about snake dike a worthwhile discussion?

Not trying to flame anyone, I just wonder if everyone coming into the thread has a predetermined conclusion. If people won’t change their opinion is it even a discussion? What’s the point? Is it to virtue signal?

Edit: I’m not saying the other thread is pointless

Welcome to the internet. Of course peak internet is starting a new thread to discuss the pointlessness of the old one.   

Is having a thread about having a thread about snake dike a worthwhile discussion?

I think it is worthwhile to sample the community current position on the topic.  It change over time especially as the older climbers die off and the sport changes.  

I remember a time when any new bolting on a route, including replacing bad bolts, was strictly forbidden.  I got a ration of shit for proposing that in southern AZ before the old guard figured out they could be free bolts by upgrading their original crappy work.  Now replacing bad bolts is all the rage, even if the bolts they are pulling are not bad.  😂

And I feel like it's regional as well in some areas it's considered acceptable to retro Bolt existing routes unless there is a bolting moratorium. And in other areas, people are extremely conservative and don't listen to anybody else's position. It's been the way it has been forever and it's gonna be that way as long as they're alive to guard the old traditions.

There's three versions of every story, your version, my version, and the truth that lies somewhere in the middle

Yeah, take the damn bolts out!

Rachael v2wrote:

Welcome to the internet. Of course peak internet is starting a new thread to discuss the pointlessness of the old one.   

I’m not saying it’s inherently pointless, but at the same time what is the outcome people expect? If we expect nothing to come from the internet shouldn’t the discussion itself be somewhat reflective. The arguments in the thread are inconsistent and illogical regardless of how you feel on the topic. No action has been taken it seems, should we consider that we are just manufacturing outrage at this point?

good points June and Pat

june mwrote:

It's been the way it has been forever and it's gonna be that way as long as they're alive to guard the old traditions.

There will be a day when you guard your own traditions. What will those be?

I'm not really one to stand on traditions, especially ones about climbing. I only hope that as climbers we can act in a responsible enough manner that we do not cause land managers/owners to close down climbing areas because it would be really sad not to have the tradition of climbing, but as far as ethics and style, I think that's a bunch of  BS. i dont Think that everything  needs to be bolted. But I also don't hold by keeping climbs run out scary and dangerous just to keep people away and boost up your ego. There's an awful lot of things we humans do to the planet that are way worse than adding bolts to a climb and I refused to get my balls in an uproar about it. I've had a couple of my FA's retro bolted without my permission and frankly, I don't give a damn I didn't have to spend money on bolts.
I love to climb, but in the big scheme of things it's all extraneous fluff

apogeewrote:

There will be a day when you guard your own traditions. What will those be?

Appears to me that there is a trend to choose which traditions to guard.

I've never climbed the route, and I don't take roofing jobs. We might consider honoring the stone and shunning the zealot.

What sort of discourse are you seeking that isn't accomplished from the half dome has fallen thread or the NorCal bolter thread? Honest question.

Casey Jwrote:

What sort of discourse are you seeking that isn't accomplished from the half dome has fallen thread or the NorCal bolter thread? Honest question.

NorCal bolter thread? 

Marc801 Cwrote:

NorCal bolter thread? 

the guy who did the bolting has a thread in the NorCal subforum. 

Casey Jwrote:

the guy who did the bolting has a thread in the NorCal subforum. 

Oh. Thanks. I didn't realize what forum it was in. I'm already following it.

The “Half Dome has fallen” thread is pretty boring considering how many words have been written.  

I guess it’s a worthy discussion, because people want to discuss it.  Is it covering new ground?  Eh…

A lot of this is mental masturbation, tbh. We all feel righteous in our opinions and I suppose its nice that we feel like airing them on a forum means we have a voice in this but what ultimately happens to those bolts is probably going to be decided outside of MP...

Andrew Giniatwrote:

… what ultimately happens to those bolts is probably going to be decided outside of MP...

Maybe. The “fallen” thread may have been started to gauge the current sentiment. Why not instead stay silent and chop the added bolts?

Bill Lawrywrote:

Maybe. The “fallen” thread may have been started to gauge the current sentiment. Why not instead stay silent and chop the added bolts?

I think one part I’m confused about, is why is it taking so long. I can’t tell at all what bolts are in the picture. “Chopping” a five piece bolt is like a one minute thing. A wedge bolt is maybe more involve but if he over drilled the hole, it’s also only going to take a minute. Only a glue in would really require chopping.

I guess to answer the person upthread, I would expect that everyone can recognize there might be a situation to retro bolt, I would also expect that everyone recognize that some things should not be retro bolted. People are pretty righteous with their stance, and regardless of snake dike, it seems like a hard way to go through life.

T Taylorwrote:

I think one part I’m confused about, is why is it taking so long. I can’t tell at all what bolts are in the picture. “Chopping” a five piece bolt is like a one minute thing. A wedge bolt is maybe more involve but if he over drilled the hole, it’s also only going to take a minute. Only a glue in would really require chopping.

I guess to answer the person upthread, I would expect that everyone can recognize there might be a situation to retro bolt, I would also expect that everyone recognize that some things should not be retro bolted. People are pretty righteous with their stance, and regardless of snake dike, it seems like a hard way to go through life.

Surely your baseline expectation for a wedge bolt presumably hand-drilled in excellent granite in a rush so that they aren’t discovered in the act isn’t that it’s over drilled. When you hammer it in and there’s still 1/4” sticking out, what’s the plan then? Not enough for a puller to grab onto to break it, not enough clearance for a clean cut with a chisel or any other cutting implement that would also heavily risk damaging the rock

Bill Lawrywrote:

Maybe. The “fallen” thread may have been started to gauge the current sentiment. Why not instead stay silent and chop the added bolts?

I started the thread in the interest of accountability for Erik so the community understands what is happening, not to gauge interest. The bolts are being removed next week. I don’t believe staying silent here is the correct position for me as a relatively established Yosemite climber, I felt like we needed a vocal and outspoken response to this action and while I don’t love the attention of it all, if not me then who?