Philip K Dick and Free Soloing

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Will be 20 years sober in august..  calling alcoholism etc a disease is a cop out and a crutch.  Makes it easy to say it's not my fault and there's nothing I can do about it. cancer is a disease. you have no choice with cancer.  You absolutely do have a choice with a bottle of whisky. 

A decision not to use sun screen or smoke cigarettes or have unprotected sex with someone with HPV does not mitigate any of the cancers such behavior can cause. People choose to eat poorly and not exercise, but we still call it “heart disease”.

I appreciate what you’re trying to say here, but I think you overstate how much calling something a disease *necessarily* robs the person with the disease of agency or responsibility. The addict choosing not to treat the disease is a moral failing, certainly. But just having the disease is not indicative of any ongoing moral failing.

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Entropy exists, but humans can perceive a mitigating effect through effort, though at the end disintegration awaits us all. 

Might as well dance while still integrated:

Love the dialogue and really appreciate/resonate with your perspective and analysis/assertions, HB.

That "exercise daily to scratch the itch we used to be born for, but now we sit in broken chairs in offices and wonder why we feel like something is fundamentally wrong with out lives" thing is immensely relatable.

One thing I would push back on, though, is the assertion that "Natural Selection isn't working" or "Natural Selection isn't happening". Especially that "Natural Selection isn't working because we have babies before diseases kick in." logic.

(1) That's kind of the opposite of the reality. Humans having been having babies later and later in life as we progress deeper into a "civilized" society. People used to have babies at 14 years old because that was effectively necessary to continue the species. Now we have school and medicine and philosophy and science and social goals beyond just "go forth and multiply in my name".

(2) Natural Selection is *always* working. It's not a values or morality system (though it can be guided by one). It's simply describing the intrinsic dynamic that those who are best suited at surviving and reproducing will have their genetics reinforced, and those genes that are less well suited for survival and procreation will become less prevalent.

Natural Selection these days still reinforces and punishes various aspects of human nature in varying degrees. You might argue that humans have transcended the forces of nature, but that's literally impossible. "Nature" is whatever you exist in. The selective pressure of a society in the 800s rewarded resilience, physical strength, and cunning. That's not totally different from today, but we do now live in a society that is less willing to let "nature" take the reins in deciding whether we live or die.

Our lives may feel "wrong" or "unfulfilled" because our environment now is so drastically different than it was 100 years ago. But that's more about subjugation of the human spirit in our modern economy and the toxic ecosystems we create for ourselves out of greed and collective stupidity, rather than some insulated environment where the laws of selective pressure no longer apply.

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

But we do have choices.  You don't have a choice with cancer or Parkinsons etc. With addiction You can cure yourself tomorrow if you want it bad enough... by diagnosing the drunk with a medical condition you just gave them the perfect excuse to say fck it.  I have a disease so there's nothing I can do about it..  your sympathy is admirable  but also makes their condition worse.  The road to hell is paved with good intentions.  

I think you’re using a limited view of the word “disease.” There are a LOT of disease processes that have controllable factors. Many of them are mitigated by lifestyle choices, similarly to addiction.

They are still diseases. Examples would be Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus, (forms of) heart disease, hypertension, many forms of cancer, etc. 

I agree with you that the lifestyle changes take commitment and a deep desire for change, but addiction IS a disease process in many ways. 

Brent Kellywrote:

Might as well dance while still integrated:

Love the dialogue and really appreciate/resonate with your perspective and analysis/assertions, HB.

That "exercise daily to scratch the itch we used to be born for, but now we sit in broken chairs in offices and wonder why we feel like something is fundamentally wrong with out lives" thing is immensely relatable.

One thing I would push back on, though, is the assertion that "Natural Selection isn't working" or "Natural Selection isn't happening". Especially that "Natural Selection isn't working because we have babies before diseases kick in. 

(1) That's kind of the opposite of the reality. Humans having been having babies later and later in life as we progress deeper into a "civilized" society. People used to have babies at 14 years old because that was effectively necessary to continue the species. Now we have school and medicine and philosophy and science and social goals beyond just "go forth and multiply in my name".

(2) Natural Selection is *always* working. It's not a values or morality system (though it can be guided by one). It's simply describing the intrinsic dynamic that those who are best suited at surviving and reproducing will have their genetics reinforced, and those genes that are less well suited for survival and procreation will  become less prevalent.

Natural Selection these days still reinforces and punishes various aspects of human nature in varying degrees. You might argue that humans have transcended the forces of nature, but that's literally impossible. "Nature" is whatever you exist in. The selective pressure of a society in the 800s rewarded resilience, physical strength, and cunning. That's not totally different from today, but we do now live in a society that is less willing to let "nature" take the reins in deciding whether we live or die.

Our lives may feel "wrong" or "unfulfilled" because our environment now is so drastically different than it was 100 years ago. But that's more about subjugation of the human spirit in our modern economy and the toxic ecosystems we create for ourselves out of greed and collective stupidity, rather than some insulated environment where the laws of selective pressure no longer apply.

Genes are only chosen through "Natural Selection" if the organism fails to reproduce due to its genetic makeup.

Once you have babies, you have escaped evolution (though your babies might not).

John Tuttlewrote:

It's different approaches to the same goal I think. Some need to be told their addiction is also because they have an ie 50x higher genetic predisposition to the affliction in conjunction with terrible environmental challenges so they don't hate themselves. The self-hate can be a block to getting healthy when they are continually told it's all their fault. This is really Medicine 101 as there is no health without mental health first. So many medical conditions may appear to be self-inflicted, but we are not designed by nature to resist essential drives (hunger, sex, mood), and stress responses vary among individuals and cultures.

Others need "tough love" to realize they literally have a problem of their own making, certainly. Fine line between the worth of a kick in the pants versus a hug...Ultimately, everyone has to make good health choices.

But I assure you, genetic factors are also the basis of personality and not everyone is equally equipped to "boot strap it up" when faced with certain challenges.

We also have choices with some cancers and more data suggests we have more choices to make. We can choose HPV vaccination and eradicate Cervical Cancer. When we stop asbestos in our environment, we eliminate Mesothelioma etc. More and more research suggests environmental factors causing many human conditions/diseases. Environmental plastics anyone?

My jackpot alarm bells are going RINGY DING DING.

The last paragraph you wrote and which I quoted above in bold is 100% spot on with that "Kids playing in the street while cars keep killing us.... when will we learn?" ethos I feel when reading Dick's epilogue and thinking about all the times me and my friends took big risks for little rewards, and how much it has cost us, both individually and collectively. 

I want to generalize away from the loaded and sensitive topic of substance abuse drug addiction, and more towards the overarching concept of choosing to embrace behavior patterns that sacrifice our long term welfare for short term delights. 

I think the crux of it that I'm seeing in all scenarios is the notion of embracing agency.

"I have alcoholism? It's a fatal disease? Not my fault? Guess I'll just drink myself to death."
versus
"I have alcoholism. It's a difficult, horrific, but manageable disease. It may not be fair and it may not be my fault, but it is my responsibility to manage it."

"Cancer exists? Some of us just get shit-fucked by the chaotic universe? We live in ecosystems full of manufactured toxins? Oh well, nothing to be done..."
versus
"Cancer is a phenomenon wherein genetic code gets corrupted in such a way that cellular growth occurs in an problematic manner. Through taking agency over our lives and environments, we can determine factors that make developing cancer more and less likely. We can disseminate this knowledge. We can seek new knowledge and technologies that give us the power of choice in how we manage the disease."

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I'm gonna be mildly ridiculous here and indulge the movie scenes that keep bouncing into my head while reading the dialogue around taking agency over your life.
Good Will Hunting is a melodramatic representation of it all, but it won Oscars for a very valid reason - it resonated with us, collectively.
One could argue that the conflict of the movie is that Will is addicted to thinking of himself as unworthy of a "successful" life.

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For some, "Tough Love" is saying what they don't want to hear, but need to hear, and doing it in a loving way. 

Saying "No." to reinforcing self-destructive behavioral patterns in ourselves and in our friends.

Tough love is not "scream at someone and emotionally abuse or manipulate them towards a desirable and beneficial outcome."
A lot of athletics coaches and school teachers still need to learn that truth.

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The emotional truth of the Good Will Hunting story, and one that is rooted in the realities of psychotherapy and mental health and maturing into a healthy adult with a strong sense of personal agency, is that Will carries the trauma of his childhood abuse and has internalized the idea that he does not deserve to be happy and thriving.

It's not until he lets go of the belief that he deserved to be afflicted that he's able to face his afflictions and take full control of his life.

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Anyways,

A friendly reminder that "Bootstrapping" was originally meant as a way of saying "It's absurd to expect a person with struggles to single-handedly resolve their conundrum..."

https://www.google.com/search?q=bootstrapping+original+meaning

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Tough Love doesn't always need to be Oscar bait melodrama and hugs, haha....
TOUGH LOVE, IDIOT:



Different strokes for different folks.
The key is not *forcing* agency upon people, but guiding them to it.

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Also, full agreement with the ethos of "disease" having an broad/all-encompassing connotation of 

"A systemic internal condition that makes my life less easy. I am dis-eased."

Rather than "uncontrollable affliction that gives me permission to not even try to manage it".

I would 100% agree with Nick that thinking of Alcoholism or Addiction in general as an "uncontrollable affliction" and thus "permission to further self-destruct" is a deeply flawed perspective and one that is strongly correlated with how addiction corrupts one's cognition and perception of what life has to offer.

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To the point of Dick making an analogy between kids playing in the street and addictive drug abuse, and saying "Drug addiction is not a disease."
He was more-so saying "Until the condition takes your agency away from you, there's a choice on whether or not to take the risk."

What he's saying is that no one forced his friends to begin playing with dangerous and addictive activities. They just all chose to believe, for whatever reason, it would be less dangerous or consequential than it really was.

That's very applicable to climbing culture and the way we love to test the limits of our capacity, but often in delusional and life-risking rather than life-affirming ways.

"Have Fun; Be Safe. It's not a trade off."

(Learned that "It's not a trade-off line." at Capital One, and, problems with the US Banking Industry aside, and I'm grateful for that gift.)

also apropos:

Breaks my heart, how much Jane and Charlie recognized that Bill was struggling with depression, but they didn't know what to do about it.

"I'm doing what I want to do."

"BULLSHIT."

That's love.

Brent Kellywrote:

Yes, accepting the realization of mortality is great motivation for positive action. 

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Yes, accepting the realization of mortality is great motivation for positive action. 

It can be a blessing to really hit a horrible rock bottom in ones life.... Thats when it's decision time

Boreal Strutwrote:

It can be a blessing to really hit a horrible rock bottom in ones life.... Thats when it's decision time

The tough moments can certainly teach the life changing lessons. 

Interesting thread. I am a total Dick head and most recently read "Flow My Tears, The Policeman Said," a really interesting take on celebrity and reality warping drugs. My personal favorite is "The Man Who Japed"...

From my understanding, A Scanner Darkly was the first novel Dick wrote without amphetamine usage...

Somehow, Bladerunner should be tied into this.  Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep??

Chris Ducawrote:

Somehow, Bladerunner should be tied into this.  Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep??

I mean, I'll just briefly say that I think we're on the cusp of having to confront just what "intelligence" and "economic value creation" actually is, and whether humans are the pinnacle of agency in that trajectory, or  whether a mechanized simulacrum of human intelligence and function supplants humanity entirely, at least in terms of it's ability to reorganize the universe to suit it's preferences and nurture self-sustaining systems of harmonic vibrance (getting pretty meta here but i mean it in an entirely tangible, tactile, and objective sense.)

So it's an interesting time to be enjoying the primal delights of climbing and connecting with the natural world....

And meanwhile... plans for Utah Data Centers.... Ai powered killer murder robot dogs...

Climbing can be a grounding activity, reconnecting our cognition and worldview with the discrete and tangible amidst so many abstract "life of the mind" and "brain in a vat" type considerations.

Interlinked...

Cells, interlinked...

So long as the machine is guided by logic without emotion, the machine is a "good" machine.

If a machine that is having "emotional" responses is a broken machine, what then do we say of a human who is guided by emotions? Rational? Disordered? Stupid?

Why free solo if the only advantage is emotional/spiritual?

And why would we financially incentivize soloing as a lifestyle, creating some external incentive for taking on life-threatening danger and then broadcasting our "courage" as "inspiring" or "entertaining"?

Brent Kellywrote:

I mean, I'll just briefly say that I think we're on the cusp of having to confront just what "intelligence" and "economic value creation" actually is, and whether humans are the pinnacle of agency in that trajectory, or  whether a mechanized simulacrum of human intelligence and function supplants humanity entirely, at least in terms of it's ability to reorganize the universe to suit it's preferences and nurture self-sustaining systems of harmonic vibrance (getting pretty meta here but i mean it in an entirely tangible, tactile, and objective sense.)

So it's an interesting time to be enjoying the primal delights of climbing and connecting with the natural world....

And meanwhile... plans for Utah Data Centers.... Ai powered killer murder robot dogs...

Climbing can be a grounding activity, reconnecting our cognition and worldview with the discrete and tangible amidst so many abstract "life of the mind" and "brain in a vat" type considerations.

Interlinked...

Cells, interlinked...

Brent, have you read Thus Spoke Zarathustra?  The age we’re living through was predicted in 1882. 

Praise be for long and exposed travels among mountains!

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Brent, have you read Thus Spoke Zarathustra?  The age we’re living through was predicted in 1882. 

Praise be for long and exposed travels among mountains!

I've not done a cover to cover read but I've studied the cliff notes. Big fan of ubermenschism, but not solipsism, and I think the Ayn Rand / John Galt / Fountainhead / Elon Musk toxic confusion is a result of that solipsism masquerading as bastardized ubermenschism.

Did do a fairly deep study on Slave Morality in college. Either at Notre Dame or Columbia. The timeline is all a bit hazy now. Found the notion offered a pretty cool but challenging paradigm shift away from systems of belief grounded in doctrine rather than rationalism and contractualism.

Scanlon's Contractualism is my current favorite guiding moral philosophy. But that's mostly just because "The Good Place" was such a well written and enjoyable Tv show. Mike Schur is a genius.