Will Stanhope

^^ well said

NateB wrote:

Lastly - I don't get the impression Will or any of his friends have ever or would ever hang out in the real world with anyone in this thread.

I didn’t give a fuck what the cool kids thought of me in high school. What makes you think I give a fuck as an adult?

This is one of the weirdest and most hilarious things I’ve ever seen anyone write on here. Did really you think comment that would matter to anyone? 

I guess this is a good time to mention that in Europe there are incredibly professional and experienced helicopter rescue teams that perform hundreds of technical rescues in the high mountains every year.   

The whole system is different from the US and Canada, and it's also different by country.  For example, in France, many technical rescues are performed by the PGHM, which is a branch of the military.  

If this accident had happend in Chamonix, Courmayeur, Zermatt or Kitzbuhel, the patient could easily have been at the hospital in 30-40 minutes from the time of the call.  It might have taken longer, but definitely not four hours.  

I'm saying this only to point out that it is possible, and could be considered a goal, or a standard, for other regions to develop toward.  

As to the issues raised by rgold, of course nobody is entitled to a rescue. 

But a civil and sane society society does everything possible to help those in need.

And Squamish is not the Bugaboos or the wilds of Alaska.  

Eric Engbergwrote:

Looks like someone is miffed.  They may have professional level skills and abilities - no argument there.  But they typically have a real life with a real job and aren't just out training 24x7 waiting for the next call.  Now if SAR is just a component of the full time job - say a ranger or Fish and Game - then I agree that a motivated volunteer might do better.  I think there are a number of levels to consider - the "S" part is mostly grunt work that could be done by many somewhat trained individuals  The "R" part breaks down into technical v. non-technical - a litter carry is again mostly grunt work.  But a high angle rescue is usually done by a highly trained in shape person.  They can be volunteer in the sense that they don't get paid (think YOSAR - which maybe Squamish has the equivalent) nut its pretty much a full time job.  In this case it seems like there was some unnecessary delay.  Faffing around with the helicopter or not - maybe it couldn't fly because of the conditions.  but a litter evaluation on the ground could have been initiated simultaneously.  Who knows - all Monday morning quarterbacking at this pint.  I certainly not faulting anyone there.

So what is your definition of "professional"?

not miffed, it just seems shortsighted and disrespectful to assume the person coming to rescue you is somehow "less" because they are not paid. unfortunately the framework for SAR in the US relies on 95% volunteers because we haven't figured out how to pay them yet. some states are getting closer, but its few and far between.

NateCwrote:

You raise the point of fairness...It's fair to ASK questions. I do not believe it's FAIR to make declarative statements about the response, the timing, or the method of rescue without very complete information.

Statements like this aren't questions. They are declarations from viewpoint that admittedly lacks facts but asserts itself anway....

Those are your words, Mike. Please re-read them and consider that there's no questions being asked. You've already decided that SAR screwed this up based upon the words and timeline of a distraught accident victim. (These statements are frequently found to be inaccurate in time and order.)

There's so much missing here that to start assigning blame to ANYONE is incorrect, inappropriate, and irresponsible. Rescue is a privilege, not a right. We all should participate in climbing knowing full well that a rescue may not benefit us at all in our time of need. I can say this as someone who has needed and benefitted from rescue, but also as someone who has had a long career as a rescuer. The people who stepped up were almost certainly acting in good faith and giving their best effort to provide help on someone's worst day. I really think that as climbers we should tread very carefully before we start pointing fingers at those people. Doing so may prove to be appropriate in rare circumstances, but we'd better have all the facts and see a clear case of negligence before making statements like you did above. Otherwise we may start to get met with reluctance to offer help when we need it. 

As far as Amarius' post about "old white guy" something or other judging someone. You couldn't be further from the point. I have no idea what my race/age has to do with me seeking a factual depiction of the events before jumping to conclusions and placing blame. Think more critically. See my above statement about victims and the veracity of time and events in accidents, they are often flawed and that was the point of my statements. 

Nate you are needlessly parsing words here. I am questioning the SAR team's response, yes. I make clear I am basing this on the partner's account to Climbing. I also stated the SAR team's response may prove out to be perfectly executed. Ultimately all parties appear to shoulder varying degrees of fault. I have edited that post to make it less declarative.

Bruno is 100% right that American/Canadian SAR teams are not on the level of their Euro counterparts (with notable exceptions! Hello Greece) for many reasons: funding, professionalism, quantity of rescues, etc. But that doesn't take away from my respect for those doing the job here in North America. 

Nor is this all theoretical for me. Five weeks ago I was in the unfortunate position to contemplate calling in a rescue when I dislocated my knee on an ice climb in Canada. I chose the very not fun route to crawl out to the car instead, because I knew how long a rescue would take and because didn't want to put the rescuers in danger in high-risk avalanche terrain late on a sunny day. If I were in Europe, I wouldn't have thought twice about calling in SAR. It doesn't mean Canadian rescue is incompetent. Far from it. They're just operating on a different model.

Lastly, you refer to the "distraught accident victim." Nothing in the reporting indicates the partner was distraught. In fact, she seems to have handled the situation as calmly and competently as one could have hoped for. Perhaps it's all a front and she was in fact crumbling under the stress of the situation and her account of how the rescue went down is way off. But I doubt it.

NateB wrote:

It all reads to me like the dude didn't want to bail on a first date who drove a long way to be there.

These SAR orgs like to advertise they're all volunteer and donation based, but they're not.  For example Squamish just built a facility with $2M in public funding from the District and more from other private donors.  RMR just built one for $20M from a tax referendum.  Full time government salaried staff are required to at least occasionally wear the hat to keep operations going - police and fire department staff, etc.  Gunks (and pretty much all other major well known) the same.  The implication that it's okay to be incompetent because it's free or because "We're not Yosemite" is a violation of public trust.  It's first aid 101 that a severe head injury needs to be in the hospital in *minutes* - that after an hour the probability of a good outcome goes off a cliff.  RMR had a very poor reputation in the 90's and early 00's as bumbling, slow and incompetent too.  After a few similar outcomes (a few I witnessed), they apparently got their shit together in a big way.  Hopefully Squamish comes around as that report sounds disturbing to me on many levels.

Lastly - I don't get the impression Will or any of his friends have ever or would ever hang out in the real world with anyone in this thread.

Lots wrong here. How are these two groups using public funds to build new buildings relevant in any way to this?   And  "Full time government salaried staff are required to at least occasionally wear the hat to keep operations going - police and fire department staff, etc".  Wrong.  RMR does not have a single paid member. And Lastly, you're wrong there too..

I'm enjoying the use of "miffed" in this conversation. That's all I have to add

Mike Larsonwrote:

Lastly, you refer to the "distraught accident victim." Nothing in the reporting indicates the partner was distraught. In fact, she seems to have handled the situation as calmly and competently as one could have hoped for. Perhaps it's all a front and she was in fact crumbling under the stress of the situation and her account of how the rescue went down is way off. But I doubt it.

Mike, I don't know that Nate is intentionally throwing shade at the partner, I think we're all in agreement that she handled the situation exceptionally well, incredibly well if she's never had SAR or medical training. The fact remains that we don't have verifiable timelines, only her recollection. It's well known that the reporting party's (RP) timeline/account can vary from actual events, sometimes significantly. This is very applicable to timelines, even to those who seem to have it together.

I can give you a firsthand example of where I had to be the RP on a catastrophic solo fall: had a call placed to Yos Dispatch inside of 6s, post climber impact w/ ground - had to argue w/ the dispatcher (I literally had to tell the dispatcher that if she wouldn't give me the box, going hot, I would simply call the on-duty medic myself and request it, as I knew who was working the amb) about resource allocation as I was 100ft above my Pt (verifiably alive by his verbal utterances) - all while down-soloing light 5th class w/ a phone to my ear. Also requested H551 be notified for possible transport (had inclement weather and was well aware of possible grounding). I had several minutes with my patient/partner where I gave what limited care I could without a jump bag or narc box, and had YOSAR at my side in short order. 

When looking back, I estimated the time it took to 1) finish up the call w/ dispatch, 2) down-solo and sprint down trail to patient and, 3) YOSAR arrival. In each case, my estimation of time was off by a factor of 2 (i.e., the actual time was 2x what I estimated). I'm not going to brag that I was cool, calm, collected, but I had flipped the switch into "work mode" b/c that was my friend's best chance of improved outcome. Despite mentally going "cold" and being hyper focused on task, my ability to estimate time was still wildly off (I verified via phone times, as dispatch required that I call again once I had reached the pt and confirmed non-fatal) from the reality on scene... and I can't count how many 1000's of 911 calls I've run, so I'm supposed to be able to handle this sort of situation.

Multiple things can be true at once - We humans can have less than perfect recall and response decisions can be far from ideal. We honestly don't know both sides of the story, though I have no reason to doubt the veracity of the partners account, especially how well she seems to have coordinated the rescue effort. Does 3hr, 4hr seem too long? Esp considering the proximity to Squamish General? Abso-friggin-lutely. Hopefully there's some positive outcomes from this, be it from improved protocols, climber safety procedures, climber decision making, self rescue ability (could we all be like Leon and have our partner on the ground in short order?), etc.

bruno did a great job highlighting the issues at play-- weather, complacency, helmet use, alcohol/alcohol addiction, legal issues, expert halo, group dynamics, emergency response. The mountainproject crew disagree on which specific factor they think was most important.

This really does sound like this was the first date of two people that met online-- it's ambiguous in the well-written accident report, but it was definitely their first time climbing together, and perhaps the first time they had ever met each other in person.  I understand better now the desire to go climb moderates in the rain, and it seems less likely to me know that acute alcohol use was a contributing factor to this accident. 

At the same time, I would still highlight that a lot of the facts and circumstances of what happen are based on one person's assessment of the situation, so who knows what actually happened...

anyways, will, RIP. 

Christian Heschwrote:

The fact remains that we don't have verifiable timelines, only her recollection. It's well known that the reporting party's (RP) timeline/account can vary from actual events, sometimes significantly. This is very applicable to timelines, even to those who seem to have it together.

While I absolutely agree that people can be wildly off with their estimates on how much time has passed, I present a counterargument: She called SAR. So she had a working phone on her. My assumption is that the times she's given is based on her phone's clock, and therefore are reasonably accurate.

I really want to hear from Squamish SAR. It would be illuminating to get their record of the events

Mike Larsonwrote:

Nate you are needlessly parsing words here. I am questioning the SAR team's response, yes. I make clear I am basing this on the partner's account to Climbing. I also stated the SAR team's response may prove out to be perfectly executed. Ultimately all parties appear to shoulder varying degrees of fault. I have edited that post to make it less declarative.

Bruno is 100% right that American/Canadian SAR teams are not on the level of their Euro counterparts (with notable exceptions! Hello Greece) for many reasons: funding, professionalism, quantity of rescues, etc. But that doesn't take away from my respect for those doing the job here in North America. 

Nor is this all theoretical for me. Five weeks ago I was in the unfortunate position to contemplate calling in a rescue when I dislocated my knee on an ice climb in Canada. I chose the very not fun route to crawl out to the car instead, because I knew how long a rescue would take and because didn't want to put the rescuers in danger in high-risk avalanche terrain late on a sunny day. If I were in Europe, I wouldn't have thought twice about calling in SAR. It doesn't mean Canadian rescue is incompetent. Far from it. They're just operating on a different model.

Lastly, you refer to the "distraught accident victim." Nothing in the reporting indicates the partner was distraught. In fact, she seems to have handled the situation as calmly and competently as one could have hoped for. Perhaps it's all a front and she was in fact crumbling under the stress of the situation and her account of how the rescue went down is way off. But I doubt it.

Mike, fair enough. I hope I'm not coming off as overly argumentative, and apologize if I am. I usually see things very similarly to you and perhaps just read the words I quoted earlier more harshly than intended. Christian is correct that I'm not at all saying anything negative about the partner. As far as I can tell, she did great with nothing I could criticize at all. 

The big question in all of this for me is weather. I suspect that if a report with all perspectives is ever released, we may find out that this rescue was significantly hindered by the same weather that caused it. I'm wondering if it wasn't just rainy and cloudy enough the helicopter response was delayed, and if it wasn't just wet enough that the SAR team thought they would be good with their plan on the hike up but found that it was too wet and slick to proceed with when they were actually in action with the weight of the patient. Complications with weather delaying things would explain a lot if the timeline is accurate. I agree with what Bruno is saying about the rescue teams in Europe, but his assumption that this would have been handled in 30-40 minutes treats weather as a given and doesn't take into account that rain often creates visibility situations that are impossible for helicopter rescues. 

I'm very skeptical when people quote times. My own self-rescue felt like it was 2-3hrs, it was closer to 9 by the time I was in an ambulance. I had a partner recently describe a lead taking 90 mins that was in actuality only 40 and a descent as taking 2.5hrs that was in actuality only 63 mins. Humans are poor estimators of time. Unless they have a written log of events, I usually take them with a large grain of salt. That's where I'm coming from here. And yes, I used the word distraught perhaps loosely with the assumption that by nature all of us are distraught and thrown off a bit when we are involved in an accident of life and death nature.

It pains me to read all the bashing on SAR in this thread, especially from people who are clearly not from the area and have no idea of the nuances of SAR in Squamish.

I'll chip in with my .02$ as someone that lives in and grew up in the s2s... On one hand, four hours does seems like a long time. For those that are asking above in the thread, the hospital is about a 5 minute drive from the Chief parking lot. From the base of the grand wall it's a 15 minute hike to the parking lot. 

Having said that. Squamish Search and Rescue is easily one of the busiest SAR organizations in Canada, probably just behind North Shore Search and Rescue (NSSAR) due to the population density of Vancouver. They often have multiple calls per day, from tourists getting lost 5 minutes from the parking lot to remote mountain rescues to base jumpers getting hung up on the Chief. They are incredibly experienced and competent. Some things to consider:

Regardless of what "volunteer" vs "professional" means, most members have day jobs and SAR is not their full time role.

15 minutes from the parking lot to GW is for a climber with minimal gear scrambling through the boulder field on shoddy trails. Despite climbing in that area countless times I don't think I've ever taken the same route from the parking to the wall; you just go up, and hop around a bit through the boulders until you arrive at the base of the wall. Pretty inconsequential. I can guarantee this is a very different scenario for the SAR team with gear, prioritizing their own safety (!) and finding an appropriate route to take the casualty down as well. 

I wasn't in town the day of the accident so couldn't comment on the weather, but obviously it wasn't bluebird and this affects the ability of a helicopter to fly. Squamish is also notoriously windy. In addition: SSAR does not have their own helicopter; though I don't know exactly how this works they have to request that a local operator assist in the rescue. Ie, helicopters are not immediately available for rescues. It is entirely likely that a helicopter was not initially available for the rescue and only made it out after the SAR insisted on it after arriving at the patient. Also rereading the article, his partner did not insist on a heli initially and the decision to call in a heli was not made until sar was with the patient.

Lastly, it is unclear which hospital Will was taken to - again, Squamish General Hospital is 5 minutes away. The article says that will was unloaded at the parking lot and then driven to the hospital an hour away - to me this reads as though he was taken to Vancouver General, which is often where patients with life threatening injuries are taken as SGH is relatively small and less well equipped. Could Will have been taken to the hospital in the helicopter? Maybe. Is this in SSAR's wheelhouse? No, their involvement probably ended as soon as Will was in the heli/at the parking lot. 

Considering this I think the bashing on SAR is unwarranted. Sub hour response time to assemble a team, gear, and arrive at the patient is pretty good if you ask me. Without a helicopter I guarantee it would have taken at least another hour, probably two, to transport the patient to the parking lot. It seems to me that much of the time lost on the rescue was not strictly in SSAR's response, but rather gaps in the entire rescue chain. I count at least three organizations working together: SSAR, heli operator, and standard emergency responders. Having SAR available is a luxury that (apparently) many people take for granted - it doesn't waive your personal responsibility to be prepared and manage risks within your abilities and the conditions, nor does it guarantee you a rescue. Luckily I have not had the need to call for help but I would unquestionably trust SSAR to do everything within their abilities to get me out of a pickle. 

There's a tv series on knowledge network from NSSAR that is very well done, they work closely with surrounding SAR organizations including SSAR as they have more funding (ie, better helicopter availability!). IIRC a few of the episodes are of rescues in Squamish. Worth watching regardless, but especially if you are curious about local SAR. Edit: knowledge.ca/program/search… free to watch with an account.

Lastly, carry a first aid kit, know how to use it, wear your helmets, and donate to your local SAR. If not for your own sake then for the people around you who may need it . 

Thank you Erik J for your informed response. This is the comment that should be at the top.

I've avoided this forum for years, but created an account because I feel obligated to speak up. Some of the posts here criticizing SAR are made from a position of complete ignorance. Emergency services are often misunderstood by the public, but the armchair quarterbacking going on here is just pathetic.

Harumpfster Boondoggle, have you ever worked with emergency services, volunteered for a SAR team, or even donated to a SAR team? (Or do you just take shots from a keyboard behind a cutsey pseudonym?)

Before pressing reply, consider volunteering with your local team, serving a couple of years, and then responding. You might learn something.

Rick Stevensonwrote:

Thank you Erik J for your informed response. This is the comment that should be at the top.

I've avoided this forum for years, but created an account because I feel obligated to speak up. Some of the posts here criticizing SAR are made from a position of complete ignorance. Emergency services are often misunderstood by the public, but the armchair quarterbacking going on here is just pathetic.

Harumpfster Boondoggle, have you ever worked with emergency services, volunteered for a SAR team, or even donated to a SAR team? (Or do you just take shots from a keyboard behind a cutsey pseudonym?)

Before pressing reply, consider volunteering with your local team, serving a couple of years, and then responding. You might learn something.

He’s a physician. 

JFC close this fucking thread, it's a true shit show.

Thanks for the additional information. I stand corrected and will refer to him as Dr. Harumpfster Boondoggle from now on.

But that makes his posts even more ignorant. A physician of all people should understand that coordinating emergency medicine in the field can have any number variables and unforeseen complexities.

Medical knowledge is always an asset to a team. All the more reason to volunteer!

Khoiwrote:

My assumption is that the times she's given is based on her phone's clock, and therefore are reasonably accurate.

Why would you assume that? Why would you assume anything?

Tony Danzawrote:

Why would you assume that? Why would you assume anything?

I knew using that word would draw out a response...

I think it's logical to use the clock on one's phone to tell the time and ascertain how much time has passed.

Do you disagree?

Rick Stevensonwrote:

Thanks for the additional information. I stand corrected and will refer to him as Dr. Harumpfster Boondoggle from now on.

But that makes his posts even more ignorant. A physician of all people should understand that coordinating emergency medicine in the field can have any number variables and unforeseen complexities.

Medical knowledge is always an asset to a team. All the more reason to volunteer!

I work in the medical field and know many physicians I would want nowhere near an emergency.

Sadly, unlike many of those physicians, this thread does nothing well.

Colonel Mustardwrote:

I work in the medical field and know many physicians I would want nowhere near an emergency.

Interesting point, but let's give Dr. Boondoggle a chance.

Of course, according a comment I read on Mountain Project:  If he is going to actually step up and volunteer his time as a First Responder to an Emergency and take charge of an evacuation his skills in assessment and evacuation procedure will be very much on the table for discussion.

I'm looking forward to those discussions.