No Dumb Questions (hopefully)

Background: I have a limited amount of time balancing a full time job with climbing. Goals are grade chasing for sport climbing and get more comfortable on gear for trad. Fuck bouldering lol.

Is it better to climb outdoors 1-2x a week to really hone in my outdoor technique and strength pulling on real rock, or go to the gym ~3-4x a week and get out once maybe every 2-3 weeks? People say nothing compares to climbing on real rock but to what extent does that hold true?

Due to commutes to gym vs crag after work, I can really only make it work between those two options. Ticks and climbing history are all public on my profile to provide any additional information.

Cheers, 

OB

I feel like I know a lot of gym rats that occasionally make it out on real rock and absolutely crush while they're there. Hard to beat the volume and variety you can get on plastic. 

On the flip side, there are a lot of pros that talk about only training on real rock. Doing so is certainly better for the soul, imo.

I'm in a similar situation with work and honestly I'm using the weather pretty much as the only decider. If I know I want to and have time to climb on a given day, if it's nice out I'm going outside. Don't underestimate what working on tactics outside can do for your climbing (if you are grade chasing) while simultaneously making you physically stronger. What you gain in physical ability indoors you loose in climbing IQ/tactics when you go outside, IMO. Either one is better than none though, which again is why I just go by how nice it is outside.

if you can, i would recommend outdoors 1-2x a week and try to sneak in 1 gym session a week.

Evan Yorstonwrote:

I'm in a similar situation with work and honestly I'm using the weather pretty much as the only decider. If I know I want to and have time to climb on a given day, if it's nice out I'm going outside. Don't underestimate what working on tactics outside can do for your climbing (if you are grade chasing) while simultaneously making you physically stronger. What you gain in physical ability indoors you loose in climbing IQ/tactics when you go outside, IMO. Either one is better than none though, which again is why I just go by how nice it is outside.

Weather isn't much of a deciding factor where I live, so it is more so my decision week over week based on how I am feeling haha. I have definitely experienced feeling stronger indoors when board climbing a lot and then going outdoors and getting slaughtered. But yes, never not going to climb (body willing).

Camdon Kaywrote:

I feel like I know a lot of gym rats that occasionally make it out on real rock and absolutely crush while they're there. Hard to beat the volume and variety you can get on plastic. 

On the flip side, there are a lot of pros that talk about only training on real rock. Doing so is certainly better for the soul, imo.

I definitely have friends that touch rock once a year and send their hardest climbs to date blowing me out of the water, but I do find that those guys also have the no days off mentality, which my body generally cant keep up with. Volume is obviously ideal, especially with my bigger, taller aspirations, but I also find it hard to transition outside when I go only a few times a month.

Would spamming gym volume sessions or just going for absolute vert maxxing outdoors be better for big wall aspirations?

I'd say that "nothing compares to climbing on real rock" is quite true in my experience. I work a full-time job and my climbing priorities are vert maxx or difficulty maxx outdoors and I like the way I'm progressing. 

I think that I climb better (and harder) doing this than if I exchanged any outdoor days for gym days. I believe Evan and slim are correct in that gym is valuable if you can sneak it in as an addition, without compromising time moving vertically and recovery. As a substitute, I'd say it's a detriment unless weather dictates otherwise, per Evan. 

My most productive gym sessions are ARC style because I reap volume capacity benefits while reaping technique benefits (footwork and resting on wall specifically). I don't really have access to a board but those are historically productive almost across most climbers' experiences. Either way, those are sessions that I'm not able or willing to go outside.

1.Work

2. family and/or social life, 

3. hobbies(climbing)

Pick 2 and if you really want to get good, pick 1

Given that you have to put in a good bit of effort to get on real rock, i would take the opportunities to due that whenever you can.  But something to consider is style? what style and rock type are your long term goals, you should do your best to be training on something similar. seems like you have quite a lot of granite trad on your to-do list, so prioritize getting out to granite trad locations on weekends as often as you can, as plastic isn't very good at training for that style.  For multipitch ambitions, try to climb atleast a dozen routes when you're out for a day, or more, even if your tired and your performance is sub par, just getting the rope to the chains will be beneficial in the long term.

Indoors is best for short intense workouts, but its probably going to be a bit boring and ego destroying.  Use whatever board your gym has over climbing on the gym set routes.  A dedicated hour on a board should leave you very worked.  its also worthwhile to sprinkle in some hangboarding to work on the very small edges that steep boards wont have.

Also old fashion weight lifting and core workouts are good to include as well, and can be used to give your fingers a day off.

tl:dr

Get outside on stuff similar your your project's style as much as able, and hit the gym when you cant get outside, and make sure your doing workouts and pushing yourself not just socializing and having fun.

it's the indian, not the arrow. do you wonder if alex megos would suddenly become a v4 climber if he could only climb indoors? or only climb outdoors? you can even check akiyo or tamoe on instagram and see if climbing indoors is a huge problem and real rock is necessary or sufficient. 

if you're smart and know what to train and how to train it, you can make do with a single brick. if you have no idea what you're doing, then even having a custom built indoor gym and living next to the crag won't help. this is why no hangs have really exploded in the market space - look into this if you haven't.

i think the real question is: why are you climbing? you say grade chasing, but it's clearly not the case if you also say 'fuck bouldering' because you're not really interested in identifying weakness or fostering strength. nor are you committed to training outside of gym or crag. it's problematic because grade chasing is very easy - almost every pro climber has videos on it and they all have the same 3 exercises but climbing for mental health or for aesthetics is incompatible with grade chasing. eliminating the grade chasing part while grade chasing isn't going to serve you or the people trying to help you. 

My take-away from Dave Macloed (what a legend!) are:

• A life set up to eliminate obstacles to climbing makes it easy to get the hours in. Proximity to indoor and outdoor climbing, and a schedule with built-in time for climbing are key.
• Regardless of the type of climbing on any given day, being intentional about micro improvements sees the biggest gains if done over years. The exact split between indoor/outdoor/hangboard/lifting etc is way less important than the learning mindset which not only makes you a better climber, but inherently frames each micro improvement as a win. Framing an improved move or marginally better hauling system as success makes it more likely for climbing to be a joy and less likely to turn into a chore, far more than chasing grades.

Great theories, harder to implement, and not as spreadsheetable as hangs and lifts. Life work stuff.

Hector Pwrote:

My take-away from Dave Macloed (what a legend!) are:

• A life set up to eliminate obstacles to climbing makes it easy to get the hours in. Proximity to indoor and outdoor climbing, and a schedule with built-in time for climbing are key.
• Regardless of the type of climbing on any given day, being intentional about micro improvements sees the biggest gains if done over years. The exact split between indoor/outdoor/hangboard/lifting etc is way less important than the learning mindset which not only makes you a better climber, but inherently frames each micro improvement as a win. Framing an improved move or marginally better hauling system as success makes it more likely for climbing to be a joy and less likely to turn into a chore, far more than chasing grades.

Great theories, harder to implement, and not as spreadsheetable as hangs and lifts. Life work stuff.

So it seems like (if I'm understanding you right) that even though you're saying the indoors vs outdoors decision doesn't really matter, for me, climbing outdoors will likely result in fostering and maximizing knowledge gained, which again, over extended periods will see the best returns.

first lastwrote:

it's the indian, not the arrow. do you wonder if alex megos would suddenly become a v4 climber if he could only climb indoors? or only climb outdoors? you can even check akiyo or tamoe on instagram and see if climbing indoors is a huge problem and real rock is necessary or sufficient. 

if you're smart and know what to train and how to train it, you can make do with a single brick. if you have no idea what you're doing, then even having a custom built indoor gym and living next to the crag won't help. this is why no hangs have really exploded in the market space - look into this if you haven't.

i think the real question is: why are you climbing? you say grade chasing, but it's clearly not the case if you also say 'fuck bouldering' because you're not really interested in identifying weakness or fostering strength. nor are you committed to training outside of gym or crag. it's problematic because grade chasing is very easy - almost every pro climber has videos on it and they all have the same 3 exercises but climbing for mental health or for aesthetics is incompatible with grade chasing. eliminating the grade chasing part while grade chasing isn't going to serve you or the people trying to help you. 

I am climbing because i think it is fun. I could obviously break it down into "i like trying hard" and "i like the puzzle" but I don't subscribe to the idea that it has to be a philosophical experience. Also grade chasing isn't WHY i am climbing, it is a goal, or a stepping stone to bigger goals down the line. I have it listed as a goal because looking anywhere for a modern take, people state that a strong basis in sport climbing is heavily suggested for hard trad climbing. At the end of the day, I want to do tough big shit.

Also I say fuck bouldering not because it is a weakness, obviously I could be better at it, but I am a better boulderer than I am at anything else. I am saying fuck bouldering because until recently, all of my outdoor experience was bouldering, and tbh it just doesn't tickle my fancy.

While I appreciate your response and insight, it seems like you would rather take issue with my question and motivations than just responding to the question itself. The question isn't "why am i climbing", it is at it's simplest level like I said. I have limited time, which should I invest in. Many other people have given amazing answers!

EDIT: I guess maybe I asked for this lol, I titled the post "No Dumb Questions (hopefully)". I guess I didn't expect anyone to take me up on it.

Trevor Kerberwrote:

I'd say that "nothing compares to climbing on real rock" is quite true in my experience. I work a full-time job and my climbing priorities are vert maxx or difficulty maxx outdoors and I like the way I'm progressing. 

I think that I climb better (and harder) doing this than if I exchanged any outdoor days for gym days. I believe Evan and slim are correct in that gym is valuable if you can sneak it in as an addition, without compromising time moving vertically and recovery. As a substitute, I'd say it's a detriment unless weather dictates otherwise, per Evan. 

My most productive gym sessions are ARC style because I reap volume capacity benefits while reaping technique benefits (footwork and resting on wall specifically). I don't really have access to a board but those are historically productive almost across most climbers' experiences. Either way, those are sessions that I'm not able or willing to go outside.

Yeah, based on everyone's responses, it looks like that is going to be the best decision for my personal situation as well. I am familiar with ARC training and have implemented in my gym training previously both on autobelay and traversing walls, but I have seen negligible returns. What ARC routine have you seen the best results from as a supplement for when you cant get outside?

I have almost always climbed harder outside when my practice sessions also are outside. I think that the ideal combination is indoor bouldering and outdoor climbing. Indoor climbing is mostly a waste of time unless you are training for roped comps, IMO.

Instead of Arcing when indoors, try boulder pyramids. These can be long endurance sessions, where you try to boulder more or less continuously for an hour on easier problems.  They can be short endurance/stamina sessions, like climbing a mid difficulty problem EMOM(every minute on the minute).  Or just a standard warm up progression, followed my mid difficulty problems climbed until your form deteriorates. These three types of sessions have the best carry over into outdoor climbing in my experience.  They also leave me with juice to send when I am outdoors.  

EDIT: The reason I find these work-outs more effective than ARCing is because you are using defined movement vs attempting to create novel sequences so your able to climb with better form.   ARCing is more or less arbitrary and difficult to quantify other than your time on the wall.  With boulder pyramids you can track your progression over time.  I also like that I can warm up for all three sessions similarly, and decide which I want to do based on how the warm-up flows.

I also aspire to do big badass climbs.  I push my rope grades with redpointing both sport and trad.  If I hit a strength plateau, bouldering comes into the picture.  

Personally, I far prefer climbing outside, so that’s what I do unless I feel I need targeted training.  

Also, if big, hard routes are the end goal, get as close to that as you can right now.  If the 14 pitch 5.12 is too ambitious, do the 8 pitch 5.11.  You can train strength, or endurance, or fingers, or you can get out there and live life.  Either can be rewarding but I usually choose outside.

I would choose the indoor option. Deliberate climbing volume is the most important metric when learning. The outdoor option offers fewer days and is inherently lower volume (hiking, belaying, etc). 

You're young. Don't neglect recovery time, general fitness (including cardio), and, especially?

DON'T GET INJURED. 

 But have fun! It's supposed to be fun, too.

Oli Bwrote:

Background: I have a limited amount of time balancing a full time job with climbing. Goals are grade chasing for sport climbing and get more comfortable on gear for trad. Fuck bouldering lol.

Is it better to climb outdoors 1-2x a week to really hone in my outdoor technique and strength pulling on real rock, or go to the gym ~3-4x a week and get out once maybe every 2-3 weeks? People say nothing compares to climbing on real rock but to what extent does that hold true?

Due to commutes to gym vs crag after work, I can really only make it work between those two options. Ticks and climbing history are all public on my profile to provide any additional information.

Cheers, 

OB

I ditched a gym membership and TR solo 1-2 times during my workweek and have no regrets.