Ugly Hardware Only

Mikey Schaefer wrote:

Am I missing some reference?  Isn’t this considered totally bomber and far from need of replacement?

It’s definitely got a couple thousand more laps in it, I’ve replaced mussys with a similar level wear though if I’m already doing other work or tired of hearing bolt reports about a “dangerously worn mussy” that ends up looking like this. 

DrRockso RRG wrote:

It’s definitely got a couple thousand more laps in it, I’ve replaced mussys with a similar level wear though if I’m already doing other work or tired of hearing bolt reports about a “dangerously worn mussy” that ends up looking like this. 

Yeah, I wish they had a little wear indicator mark on them so people would stop reporting them so much. 

That’s a great idea to have a wear indicator! What would that look like?

Worn lowering hardware don’t get reported too often here in New Mexico so when it does, I go check it.  Most times I replace what’s there since I have new hardware in my pack. It’s usually a popular easier route and replacing it eliminates more comments about it. I move good hardware that’s just a bit worn to less popular routes that don’t have lowering hardware.

Yeah, I wish they had a little wear indicator mark on them so people would stop reporting them so much.

That would be nice, I'm guessing Sport Bolting is using a generic Chinese forged hook that they add the SS wire gate to, heat treat, and zinc plate, IDK how easy it would be to add a mark if that's the case. They often get a little sharp before they need replacement due to strength. I tell people if it's thicker than your aluminum quickdraw and not sharp, then it's still good to go and probably stronger than any of your personal gear. The gate doesn't actually add strength like a regular carabiner, but based on the testing it still seems to hold true. In practice, I usually replace them if I'm already there to look at something and have the goods if they're past 50%, that's about the point where we continue to get reports about worn gear. 

Actual replacment interval is quite long, but the optics is where youll find the issue, as the Dr. points out.

At 50% wear most folks consider it un-trustworthy, where in reality its good through at least 75% of the total thickness, especially if being worn in pairs.

Easy enough to use an engraver to put a wear line / indicator to whatever minimum thickness you consider prudent for replacment.
We can call it the YGD line.

Mikey Schaefer wrote:

Am I missing some reference?  Isn’t this considered totally bomber and far from need of replacement?

Would whip.

So it sounds like a wear indicator could be helpful.  But possibly more education of what actually worn out anchor hardware looks like would also help.

  Do the websites collecting potentially worn out anchors have pictures and examples of what is worn out and what is totally bomber still?  

A wear indicator on mussy hooks would become hidden unless it is some type of bulge or indention after the hooks are painted if the installer paints them and be useless.

Mikey Schaefer wrote:

So it sounds like a wear indicator could be helpful.  But possibly more education of what actually worn out anchor hardware looks like would also help.

  Do the websites collecting potentially worn out anchors have pictures and examples of what is worn out and what is totally bomber still?  

Think the main issue is that depending on the exact anchor configuration, the edge on some hooks can get sharper than others - so some may be fine (rounded edges) at 50% worn, while others may develop a sharp edge.

I've replaced open cold shuts worn to 90-95% of the way through without getting particularly sharp edges. Once they wear about 95% of the way through, they can open up (and start wearing on that last little bend) - seen that at Owens, sketch!!

Adam W wrote:

A wear indicator on mussy hooks would become hidden unless it is some type of bulge or indention after the hooks are painted if the installer paints them and be useless.

Could just weld a bead at the wear point slightly out of the rope path.

I agree with Greg. Based on how the anchor is configured, lowering hardware that I’ve seen wears in different ways, not always evenly and straight through. This cut hardware on the right in the photo is some of the worst I’ve updated  

Early Owens rebolters would add a third bolt above and between the two open cold shuts with a steel carabiner that would hang between the hooks, set up as a backup so it would not get weighted. BUT then the cold shuts would wear way, way down, more than anyone thought would happen, and the backup steel carabiner would get weighted. Since the two cold shuts were still taking most of the weight, the steel carabiner would get worn only side to side, not down, and could get super sharp. Then, at some point people would get so sketched by how worn down one cold shut or the other would get, they would lower through just one shut and the sharp-edged carabiner, and ropes could get super fuzzed just by a single lower.

I'm thinking that the in an ideal world hooks would have a hardened, replaceable insert (similar to edelrid bullet biners, but with a retaining pin).  this would make maintenance easier and also serve as a wear marker.

old5ten wrote:

I'm thinking that the in an ideal world hooks would have a hardened, replaceable insert (similar to edelrid bullet biners, but with a retaining pin).  this would make maintenance easier and also serve as a wear marker.

But at what cost?

O the humanity lol.

Edelrid steel insert biners are ~$35 each. But I wonder if they wear any better in long-term lowering sitiations?

While mussies are ideal, imo, the super beefy steel rings might last better and be more cost effective too.

Inevitably, worn hardware has to be replaced. When and by whom remains a primary determinant of safety.

old5ten wrote:

I'm thinking that the in an ideal world hooks would have a hardened, replaceable insert (similar to edelrid bullet biners, but with a retaining pin).  this would make maintenance easier and also serve as a wear marker.

I keep hearing this “solution”, you want to put a steel insert on an already steel piece of hardware? These things are only $8.50 retail, much cheaper bought in bulk. It would be more work to replace the insert than to replace the whole thing, assuming the fasteners aren’t too rusted already. I can’t imagine this would be financially worth it. Between the added cost to manufacture a more complicated hook, and the replacements, not to mention the majority of these never get worn down to a dangerous level. We just happen to see the ones from really popular routes. These hooks are always part of a modular system, attached with a quicklink usually, making them really easy to replace. Sometimes the current solution (just replacing the few that get worn on popular routes every few years) is a solution that’s plenty good enough, toss the worn ones in the recycling bin and they can get made into more mussies 😁 

DrRockso RRG wrote:

I keep hearing this “solution”, you want to put a steel insert on an already steel piece of hardware? These things are only $8.50 retail, much cheaper bought in bulk. It would be more work to replace the insert than to replace the whole thing, assuming the fasteners aren’t too rusted already. I can’t imagine this would be financially worth it. Between the added cost to manufacture a more complicated hook, and the replacements, not to mention the majority of these never get worn down to a dangerous level. We just happen to see the ones from really popular routes. These hooks are always part of a modular system, attached with a quicklink usually, making them really easy to replace. Sometimes the current solution (just replacing the few that get worn on popular routes every few years) is a solution that’s plenty good enough, toss the worn ones in the recycling bin and they can get made into more mussies 😁 

Yeah, over engineering things is almost never a good solution. What I’m thinking about is a small embossed arrow or line with a statement like, replace or caution etc.. at a safe wear distance. Either stamped or embossed into the metal. They put all kinds of logos, safety ratings “wear goggles” messages on metal tools. Why not put something on the mussy hooks. Wouldn’t add any cost really. 

old5ten wrote:

I'm thinking that the in an ideal world hooks would have a hardened, replaceable insert (similar to edelrid bullet biners, but with a retaining pin).  this would make maintenance easier and also serve as a wear marker.

The replaceable insert idea was part of the inspiration for the Edelrid bulletproof biners.  I came up with the idea maybe 10 or so years ago (or maybe longer) and worked on a few ideas that incorporated wear markers. I was close friends with Carsten von Birckhahn, who was running Edelrid at the time.  We chatted about it while down in Patagonia one year.  Not that many years later Carsten was so excited to show me a prototype that eventually became the current version with the fixed steel insert.

Mikey,
It was a great idea! Kudos to you for coming up with it and kudos to Carsten for running with it and bringing it to market. 

Soft rock out in Zion! Was just passing through so unable to do any work on it. Led by Sheep. It appears this is already the re-bolt of a ~20ish year old route.

Kevin Heinrich wrote:

Soft rock out in Zion! Was just passing through so unable to do any work on it. Led by Sheep. It appears this is already the re-bolt of a ~20ish year old route.

Need some 12mm double wedges maybe?