Belay off 1st Bolt to Reduce 2nd Bolt Ground Fall Risk?

There's a particular route at a local crag that is low angle slab for the first two bolts. The first bolt is a stick clip, for me, and the 2nd is very likely a ground fall if the climber missed it. That 2nd bolt is beyond almost every length of stick clip, very run out. Now given that it's low angle slab, serious injury is unlikely but could be painful and risky none the less. I've climbed it with a belayer on the ground but another time my belayer tethered off the first bolt to take slack out of the system and guarantee that in the case of missing the second bolt, it would not be a ground fall. What do you all think about belaying off the first bolt in this case? Yeah, it's not pure sport climbing at this point, aid?, but I could care less about the ethics of cheating the climb. Sure, that first bolt would be loaded more, but surely it would be good enough to manage the forces of a hanging belayer plus a whip. Thanks for any comments.

Add a bolt

Doesn't sound like a particularly good idea to me because you're creating a much higher fall factor than belaying from the ground.  If the climber is not clipped into the bolt, then they're taking a factor 2 on it if they don't hit the ground.  Even if they are clipped to the bolt, it will be very close to a factor 2 and you'll probably be loading the quickdraw weird by having to fit in the hanger alongside whatever carabiner you are using for your tether.  You'd also be very likely to get your grigri or hand caught up in the quickdraw in the event of a fall, which would not be fun.

Also, is the issue that getting to the 2nd bolt is just high enough above 1 that with rope stretch you'll hit the ground?  So you're trying to start higher to limit the amount of stretch?  The simplest solution to me just seems to be to have your belayer run back to take in slack if you fall getting to bolt 2.  Since it's low angle and high, they should have plenty of reaction time to take in slack, assuming of course the terrain allows for running backwards.

Outside the other issues, you also need to consider your belay device and how you actually intend to belay off that first bolt. If your solution is to just pull yourself up the wall with a grigri, you need to prepare for that belay device to fail, especially if it gets pulled into the first bolt. If you intend to put yourself on indirect on the first bolt, I would be worried about the forces generated on that bolt when your climber falls and you are weighting the system on one bolt

Just stick-clip the second bolt from the first. Come down and start over if you want.  Belaying from the first bolt definitely has worse fall factors.  And sounds uncomfortable.

You just made it a 2 pitch climb, creative.

The amount of stretch you're saving by belaying off that bolt is what, a foot or two? A decent belayer on the ground will be able to take in much more rope than that.

I'm not saying this is the only way to do it.  But maybe wait until you are a stronger climber and more comfortable with the risk.

From the description if one falls at the second clip it does not matter where the belayer is located the leader is going to deck. Which is the norm.

The issue when bolting a route is "in general" the distance between the first thee bolts. Most routes are such that if the leader falls at the second clip they are going to deck. The question is how hard.

Another vote for stick clipping the 2nd bolt from the 1st

Allen Sandersonwrote:

From the description if one falls at the second clip it does not matter where the belayer is located the leader is going to deck. Which is the norm.

The issue when bolting a route is "in general" the distance between the first thee bolts. Most routes are such that if the leader falls at the second clip they are going to deck. The question is how hard.

The climber should not be looking at a ground fall at the second bolt if clipping properly. Many people high clip the second bolt, which can add enough rope to allow a deck fall.  But a proper bolt pattern should allow the climber to clip at waist level without hitting the ground even if they blow the clip.  An attentive belayer is also critical, of course.

It doesn’t sound like this climb is bolted in the above configuration, but that’s the modern standard.  

Without knowing the route, I don't know how people can sit in their armchairs and confidently decree whether or not a ground fall is likely from a fall at the second bolt of this route, or whether the proposed suggestion would mitigate the risk. "Clipping properly" is irrelevant if you will deck by the time you reach the second bolt. 

There are many ground up bolted routes where it is 100% certain you will deck if you fall before clipping the second bolt. This might be one of them. Some bolted routes are not sport routes, they are R rated, and are best left to climbers with self-knowledge and self-confidence equal to the first ascentionist. Proposing this technique means you likely don't have these attributes, at least not yet. I wonder if there are runouts later on the route that might also be serious. This route might be beyond you, at least right now. But many of us use shenanagins to get a rope up to an anchor, whether from above or below, if we are obsessed with a climb that is beyond us. I wish you luck, and stay safe with your shenanagins!

Calebwrote:

The climber should not be looking at a ground fall at the second bolt if clipping properly. Many people high clip the second bolt, which can add enough rope to allow a deck fall.  But a proper bolt pattern should allow the climber to clip at waist level without hitting the ground even if they blow the clip.  An attentive belayer is also critical, of course.

It doesn’t sound like this climb is bolted in the above configuration, but that’s the modern standard.  

who installed the bolts such that this problem was created....in the first place?  I would say fix it.

Thanks for the replies, all good POVs. It's Enchanted Rock in TX, all super sketchy bolt run outs!

Calebwrote:

The climber should not be looking at a ground fall at the second bolt if clipping properly. Many people high clip the second bolt, which can add enough rope to allow a deck fall.  But a proper bolt pattern should allow the climber to clip at waist level without hitting the ground even if they blow the clip.  An attentive belayer is also critical, of course.

It doesn’t sound like this climb is bolted in the above configuration, but that’s the modern standard.  

Here is a typical bolted sport route. First bolt is ~8' up, next bolt is ~6' up. But let's make it ~5' feet. One can clip the second bolt when it is at their waist but if they miss they are going to deck. One's waist is 13 feet up and is going to fall 10' plus a little rope stretch. So their waist is safe by 3' but people got 3' worth of legs. Their legs are 10 feet up and are going to fall 10' plus a little rope stretch. They are decking.

Here is another typical bolted sport route. First bolt is ~10' up, next bolt is ~6' up. One can clip the second bolt when it is at their waist but if they miss they are going to deck. One's waist is 16 feet up and is going to fall 12' plus a little rope stretch. So their waist is safe by 4' but again people got 3' worth of legs. Their legs are 13 feet up and are going to fall 12' plus a little rope stretch. That little bit of rope stretch plus the belayer moving means they are decking.

That is the modern standard.

In fact, try a waist high fall from the second bolt in your local indoor gym. Tell us how it goes.

Patrick Heddinswrote:

Add a bolt

Sarcasm?  ;-)  

Otherwise this is a bit hasty to recommend a drastic change to a route (retrobolting) when we don't know the route, the accepted ethics of the area, or even the distances involved.  Later in this thread the area is IDed as Enchanted Rocks, noted for its hairy slab leads.  

And Andrew C's question wasn't "Should I add a bolt?"  It was seeking info on how to manage risk with the existing protection.  Group opinion seems to be Belay from First Bolt = Bad Idea, and I agree.  But I respect their efforts to match the local standard.  

Allen Sandersonwrote:

Here is a typical bolted sport route. First bolt is ~8' up, next bolt is ~6' up. But let's make it ~5' feet. One can clip the second bolt when it is at their waist but if they miss they are going to deck. One's waist is 13 feet up and is going to fall 10' plus a little rope stretch. So their waist is safe by 3' but people got 3' worth of legs. Their legs are 10 feet up and are going to fall 10' plus a little rope stretch. They are decking.

Here is another typical bolted sport route. First bolt is ~10' up, next bolt is ~6' up. One can clip the second bolt when it is at their waist but if they miss they are going to deck. One's waist is 16 feet up and is going to fall 12' plus a little rope stretch. So their waist is safe by 4' but again people got 3' worth of legs. Their legs are 13 feet up and are going to fall 13' plus a little rope stretch. That little bit of rope stretch plus the belayer moving means they are decking.

That is the modern standard.

In fact, try a waist high fall from the second bolt in your local indoor gym. Tell us how it goes.

I think you’re exaggerating the risks here.  

In your examples, the first bolt should be higher and the second should remain relatively low.  First bolts are rarely at 8 or 10’.  12’ is a common standard in gyms.  14’ is pretty good too.  In a scenario where you have a uniquely low first bolt, the second bolt effectively becomes the real first one.  Obviously there are terrain circumstances where the ground might slope away or lean over a precipice and a low bolt is warranted.  And the climbing terrain at the beginning of the climb may be dramatically easier than the crux, so the likelihood of blowing a clip is low.  

I disagree that “2nd clip or deck” is the modern standard.  I think saying that reinforces fears for a lot of people.

I have blown the second clip in the gym several times. I’ve been caught, and I’ve also just hopped down and landed on my feet like a normal bouldering fall.  I don’t think the gym accurately represents outdoor scenarios for ground falls but it doesn’t hurt to practice your tactics.  

Calebwrote:

I think you’re exaggerating the risks here.  

In your examples, the first bolt should be higher and the second should remain relatively low.  First bolts are rarely at 8 or 10’.  12’ is a common standard in gyms.  14’ is pretty good too.  In a scenario where you have a uniquely low first bolt, the second bolt effectively becomes the real first one.  Obviously there are terrain circumstances where the ground might slope away or lean over a precipice and a low bolt is warranted.  And the climbing terrain at the beginning of the climb may be dramatically easier than the crux, so the likelihood of blowing a clip is low.  

I disagree that “2nd clip or deck” is the modern standard.  I think saying that reinforces fears for a lot of people.

I have blown the second clip in the gym several times. I’ve been caught, and I’ve also just hopped down and landed on my feet like a normal bouldering fall.  I don’t think the gym accurately represents outdoor scenarios for ground falls but it doesn’t hurt to practice your tactics.  

Not exaggerating the risks, my examples are outside examples. Further, not trying to say indoor gyms represent outdoor scenarios for ground falls. Outdoor scenarios for ground falls a way worse.

You state that while in the gym you have blown the second clip and you have just hopped down then you have taken a grounder. Which demonstrates my point.

Allen Sandersonwrote:

Here is a typical bolted sport route. First bolt is ~8' up, next bolt is ~6' up. But let's make it ~5' feet. One can clip the second bolt when it is at their waist but if they miss they are going to deck. One's waist is 13 feet up and is going to fall 10' plus a little rope stretch. So their waist is safe by 3' but people got 3' worth of legs. Their legs are 10 feet up and are going to fall 10' plus a little rope stretch. They are decking.

Here is another typical bolted sport route. First bolt is ~10' up, next bolt is ~6' up. One can clip the second bolt when it is at their waist but if they miss they are going to deck. One's waist is 16 feet up and is going to fall 12' plus a little rope stretch. So their waist is safe by 4' but again people got 3' worth of legs. Their legs are 13 feet up and are going to fall 13' plus a little rope stretch. That little bit of rope stretch plus the belayer moving means they are decking.

That is the modern standard.

In fact, try a waist high fall from the second bolt in your local indoor gym. Tell us how it goes.

I think you must have shitty belayers

Allen Sandersonwrote:

Not exaggerating the risks, my examples are outside examples. Further, not trying to say indoor gyms represent outdoor scenarios for ground falls. Outdoor scenarios for ground falls a way worse.

You state that while in the gym you have blown the second clip and you have just hopped down then you have taken a grounder. Which demonstrates my point.

Well, be afraid, I guess.  And please don’t install bolts like that if you can avoid it.