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Show us your home-brew Petzl Connect-Adjust (or other) setup
Max Rwrote: Would be curious for a pull test but also a system that only sees body weight and is advertised around 8 kn I wouldn’t be too worried, more how it interacts with the cord |
Slim Pickenswrote: Yes, but only in relation to the Sheep-Human hybrids which offend both nature and God. |
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Anyone have good luck reroping with Edelrid starling pro dry protect 8.2mm? Also I am very curious if anyone has literature at what force the dynamic safety reserve will go off on the Edelrid Rap Line protect pro dry? |
Caleb Hilswrote: I posted a video of this being tested a while ago, can't find it now but it's very low, wouldn't recommend. |
that guy named sebwrote: Hmm, good to know, thanks! |
that guy named sebwrote: To be clear; you're referring to the sheath going on the Rap Line, yes? ...I've been using the Edlerid Pro Protect in a 8.2 for my Connect so I want to be sure I am not putting myself in a YGD situation (has been working great). |
Andrew Giniatwrote: Yes! I wanted to hear about both, I’m glad to hear the 8.2 is great! I was also curious about the “deploy” weight of the rap line going dynamic |
Andrew Giniatwrote: That's right the rap line broke super low in the adjust. Seeing the failure mode has made me feel a bit cautious about using ropes with thinner sheaths. |
that guy named sebwrote: Do you recall if it was a drop test, or a pull test? For tethers, I think drop testing is more reflective of the most likely IRL failure mode... And in drop testing, most cordage will break equal to or lower than pulling, all else being equal. But a lot of cordage is rated based on a pull, so we may be overestimating our safety margin, if we don't test properly. Also, it's hard to say exactly how much to discount the line strength for the geometry of the bend/pinch inside the Petzl device. It's not just a regular bend around a carabiner, because the cord is compressed between the biner and the device. That's not a mode that's covered by the data provided by most cordage manufacturers. This is definitely an application where the "unknown unknowns" can bite you in the ass. I would definitely want to see some real-world-representative drop tests on anything threaded into one if these devices. I would love to test this, myself, but I don't have a fast dyno that can take good drop test measurements -- just a cheap dumb crane scale that barely works for slow pulling. |
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Wasn't a video sorry, it was a drop test with a steel weight. |
Caleb Hilswrote: I've been using the starling 8.2 in my connect adjust, works like a dream. Smooth like butter, no issues with slippage |
Tanner Jameswrote: There are other cords around that diameter and strength with less self destructive cores of dyneema. Or a dyneema single braid could replace the technora core if the Tech cord cover is wanted.  Robline’s 3mm Ocean 5000, break strength 5200 lbs on the left. Tech cord CE4Y’s Slick Line, 20 kN V.elo’s 6mm DyTech, 5200 lbs. |
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All this talk about drop testing vs pull testing, does this cord break at 7kN or 9kN, blah blah. I think folks are losing the plot. When you’re modifying PPE, or using stuff that’s not PPE as PPE, the responsibility to not do sketchy shit is elevated. Test extensively at ground level to make sure your chosen cord isn’t going to slip. On the wall, tether in tight to your stance if you’re not on a big level ledge. Need to change your stance? Thats why the thing is adjustable and why we’re optimizing the adjustability in the first place. Don’t climb above the anchor—that’s a choice not a need, like ever. Ensure the integrity of your tie in knot and stopper knot. Feel free to use something hyperstatic, it’s not like the dynamism of 2.5 feet of rope is giving you much relief if you climb above the anchor and factor onto your PAS. Inspect the integrity of your soft goods on the regular. Use common sense and Don’t. Do. Sketchy. Shit. It’s just not that hard, is it? What’s the scenario where you’re going to not be doing sketchy shit and still find yourself pushing the safety margin of these things? I can’t think of it. Im sure I’m being a Pollyanna here—humans gonna human after all, and we certainly don’t have a very good track record when it comes to the Don’t Do Sketchy Shit™️ of it all. Sigh… |
Slim Pickenswrote: ... said every person killed by Unknown Unknowns, right before they got killed by those Unknown Unknowns. Safety is not just about planning for *anticipated* errors. It's also recognizing that sometimes things happen that we didn't intend -- mistakes, or weird situations that we just didn't think of. To believe that you can completely and perfectly control (a) all external circumstances, and (b) your own mistakes is just not realistic. Even experts make mistakes, and this a big part of why rated gear has such a large safety factor. To put that another way... Right before Todd Skinner, Dan Osman, Ammon McNeely, and Balin Miller died -- don't you think all of them felt the exact same way you do about their ability to control all the variables? |
Ryan Lynchwrote: Yeah, all fair. Thanks for saying it. |
Slim Pickenswrote: Not to start any arguments, but Is there a real difference in safety having a dynamic cord? Comfort aside, will having that 2.5 feet of dynamic rope save your back from breaking in a freak accident or furthermore, the rope from breaking in a freak fall or shock load. I’ve seen some people on here have a carabiner on the tail end to create fast two bolt anchors, should there be any concern about shock loading if either bolt were to fail? Again, not looking to argue, just for curious input |
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I was present for some drop testing conducted on a variety of PAS/Tether options inside of a climbing gym. The only tether that survived and didn’t catastrophically break, was the dynamic petzl rope. People above saying that such a short amount of dynamic material won’t save you are wrong. |
Slim Pickenswrote: 30ish% dynamic elongation is absolutely doing something that your body, and anchor, will be happy to have in the system. |
Ryan Lynchwrote: I think that these are all very very bad examples to use to make your point. It kind of comes across as an appeal to authority by using examples of famous climbers who have died, but none of whom were doing anything remotely related to the discussion at hand. McNeely wasn't even climbing or doing anything anyone would consider related to risk and risk calculation. Dan Osman publicly acknowledged that any mistake in his calculations could be disastrous and in interviews shortly before his death stated "...my guardian angels need a break anyway. They’ve been working overtime for me." He knew he couldn't control everything. Balin Miller died in a rappelling accident from mistakenly rappelling the wrong side of a line (likely due to fatigue), not from cutting margins and a freakish failure. Todd Skinner ignored warnings from friends that his harness needed replacing. He was aware that he wasn't controlling variables and wantonly ignored one that was in his control. None of your examples stand up to the statement you made, and none are really relevant to the discussion of modifying a connect adjust. If anything, the literal hundreds (maybe thousands) of daisy falls that Ammon took while climbing big walls is a testament against the statements you are making that are relevant to this topic. The daisy chains of the early 00's were rated MUCH lower than a stock connect adjust, and often made from dyneema with zero ability to absorb shock. Yet guys like him often took daisy falls while fully extended above a piece... |
NateCwrote: Please keep in mind, I was responding specific to Slim's point about "just don't do anything sketchy", i.e., control all the variables.
McNeely is pretty much the exact example of my point... He wasn't even climbing, and believed he was in a safe situation -- which demonstrates that it's impossible to entirely control any situation, as was suggested we could do. Dan Osman publicly acknowledged that any mistake in his calculations could be disastrous and in interviews shortly before his death stated "...my guardian angels need a break anyway. They’ve been working overtime for me." He knew he couldn't control everything. IIRC, the cause of Osman's death was a broken dynamic rope, which (IIRC) managed to get tangled in itself, in a terrifically unlikely way. It was nigh impossible to anticipate that risk specifically, because I can't think of a single other accident with that same failure mode... Which demonstrates, in contrast to the prior argument, that there are always "Unknown Unknowns" that we can know about, in advance.
Balin Miller was a slightly different example of a failure in the type of thinking Slim was advocating for... If Andy Kirkpatrick's analysis is to be believed, he simply made a mistake -- which demonstrates that it is simply not within the powers of human beings to operate fully according to safe procedure, every time.
And again -- individual judgement alone is insufficient to accurately assess risks, and control all the variables. So in other words -- I'm not sure who you're arguing with, but it doesn't seem to be *me*. |
