Poop Philosophy and Tyvek

Jim Hwrote:

I’m local, so I will mostly big wall in the winter when fewer people can schedule around the weather. In the summer a black tube might be ok, or it might just simmer things at a nice 150F most of the time, once you account for thermal mass and colder nights. Probably a separate lot of sciencing.

That would actually be fine, you can pasturise at 150F it just has to be held at that temp for longer. The temperature swings wouldn't matter much either they'd just just baked again the following day. At the same time it may reach higher than 160F inside which would pasturise even quicker. 

I expect that for winter climbers at least the high surface area of individual bags will be important due to the relatively low vapor pressure. Some of the stinky compounds are “slippery” and therefore would not be captured by activated charcoal, but it would definitely help with many components of the smell.

For winter there surely isn't a problem, it's cold enough that things can freeze, you wouldn't want a matte black bag you'd want something lightly insulated to keep the cool from the nights. Winter and summer poop tube. 

But this isn't anything new of course, solar drying of human waste is already done at scale. 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301479722022137

I feel like a better way to tackle the smell problem would be to improve the gelling agent with some sort of enzyme to break down the "smell" compounds.  I don't really know much about the chemistry of why poop smells bad, though. 

Y’all are seriously overthinking this. I used to be a poop tube user, but was shown the paper bag method by Pete a couple of years ago and will never go back. Number one, it’s super easy and low, low tech. Two, that shit dries out in half a morning and by the next morning there’s almost no smell to speak of.  Now, as regards to the mesh bag on a 25’ tether- well, Pete had one get snagged while hauling and we lost a few choice paper bags. But, we have switched to doubling the mesh bags for redundancy. However, I also scuba dive and have come across some very heavy duty mesh bags in dive shops that look like they could handle a lot of abuse. So, that might be the next upgrade.

Charles Winsteadwrote:

Y’all are seriously overthinking this. I used to be a poop tube user, but was shown the paper bag method by Pete a couple of years ago and will never go back. Number one, it’s super easy and low, low tech. Two, that shit dries out in half a morning and by the next morning there’s almost no smell to speak of.  Now, as regards to the mesh bag on a 25’ tether- well, Pete had one get snagged while hauling and we lost a few choice paper bags. But, we have switched to doubling the mesh bags for redundancy. However, I also scuba dive and have come across some very heavy duty mesh bags in dive shops that look like they could handle a lot of abuse. So, that might be the next upgrade.

Sun Life Style Mesh Laundry Bags... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MD43SBG?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

Grabbed some of those and they seem pretty durable. Might be low on capacity if you’re doing more than a few days though, maybe 20 liters?

Pretty sure the paper bag approach would work fine at this point, and people should have already been doing that more.

Jim Hwrote:

Sun Life Style Mesh Laundry Bags... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MD43SBG?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

Grabbed some of those and they seem pretty durable. Might be low on capacity if you’re doing more than a few days though, maybe 20 liters?

Pretty sure the paper bag approach would work fine at this point, and people should have already been doing that more.

Some time ago I got a vinyl coated mesh fabric with the intention of making some of these bags.  Looks like I should dig that material out and finally make some. 

So, the scientological testing results are that the described system makes the poop storage pretty close to scentless, even if you’re less than 5 ft away, with one note. It is important to make sure that no part of the paper bag is in contact with the paper bag and the tyvek shell.

Obviously, everyone has systems that like so this is just for anyone who is interested. 

The refined system is this:

1.) Get a paper grocery store bag. At the short ends, tear halfway down the side and fold the top part down to get the top of the bag at a good squat height.

2.) Git’r dun.

3.) Optionally, dose the load with 1/4 tsp copper sulfate and 1 tbs baking powder and shake to coat. Copper sulfate basically stops the production of stinky compounds in short order, but can be an irritant and can cause corrosion on aluminum so make sure to keep it off your gear. Pre-dosed mini nalgene bottles or ziplock bags work great and minimize spill risk.

4.) Fold the bag so no paper in contact with turd is on an outside surface. Pete Zabrok talks about rolling it into a burrito, I just folded the sides down over the turd and used a ‘Z’ fold on the flattened bag to make it fit nicely in the envelope with minimal handling.

5.) Slide the whole thing into a white 10x13” mailer squish lightly to reduce bulk, and seal.

6.) Toss the whole thing into a mesh bag.

Once your pooping space airs out, you probably won’t be able to smell it unless you have a sizable collection built up and you’re fairly close to it, and even then the scent should be relatively inoffensive due to drying and copper sulfate if used. It is also quite hygienic since you should see any leak through spots on the white mailer, in the off chance that your method of were unsuccessful in keeping moisture from directly contacting the mailer. The mailer also keeps dry waste dry, reduces the rate of drying in hot weather to keep the “stench dump” (and dump stench) from very rapid drying more manageable.

If this all seems like too much, I’m pretty sure that the approach espoused by Charles above and Pete in his book would probably still work really well, and almost certainly smell a lot better than 6 days of fermenting wag bags. This is the 80/20 of my over-engineered solution.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts along the way!

Legendary follow through. I was planning to deploy the paper bag method on the next wall, but think I will amend to use the mailers too!

Jim, amazing write-up. Any thoughts on using tyvek poop-mailers for backpacking as opposed to big-walling?

Matt Carrollwrote:

Legendary follow through. I was planning to deploy the paper bag method on the next wall, but think I will amend to use the mailers too!

Don’t overlook the role that the copper sulfate and baking soda play. I didn’t test the process without them, but it’s my understanding they contribute a lot to the lack of smell, and they’re cheap. I found a pound of copper sulfate pentahydrate for around $10 on Amazon, which is a lot of it considering how much the process actually uses.

Devan Beewrote:

Jim, amazing write-up. Any thoughts on using tyvek poop-mailers for backpacking as opposed to big-walling?

Long story short: you might be able to adapt it, or something like it, but it isn’t straightforward.

1.) I would never put this inside my pack unless it was also inside a mylar ziplock bag for smell and sanitary risk, but I might try putting it in a Mylar bag during the day and letting it dry at night. It would probably smell horrible when you open the bag each time since it will have had a chance to ferment and collect smells all day.

2.) at high elevation or in hot weather, even when stored externally the smell would escape more easily. At the same time the turds would dry faster. Again, not sure how well the tradeoff works there since it is generalizing to conditions very much unlike the current conditions in the Sierra foothills, or in my apt bathroom.

The Zabrok method is tried and true, with only one failure in over 800 nights on the wall.*  And several thousand poop bags - a far lower failure rate than poop tubes!

Rain is not an issue - a day of sunshine restores dryness. Diarrhea is not an issue - Trader Joe's bags are plenty fluid resistant.

Dry poop bags don't stink. At all. They are 25% [?] the weight of wet bags and easy to carry down from the summit. 

Chongo gave me the idea of using paper bags. I used to tie them on a 5mm cord with a slipknot  - the "wall flower". 

Good ol Cybele came up with the mesh bag idea. 😉

* The Heart Route spring 2025 - the heavy duty mesh bag caught under a sharp downward-pointing protuberence while hauling and tore. I got a lecture from the climbing ranger, but cited the above stats vis a vis the poop tube. 

I am unfamiliar with Tyvek but would like to learn more. 

Peter Zabrokwrote:

The Zabrok method is tried and true, with only one failure in over 800 nights on the wall.*  And several thousand poop bags - a far lower failure rate than poop tubes!

Rain is not an issue - a day of sunshine restores dryness. Diarrhea is not an issue - Trader Joe's bags are plenty fluid resistant.

Dry poop bags don't stink. At all. They are 25% [?] the weight of wet bags and easy to carry down from the summit. 

Chongo gave me the idea of using paper bags. I used to tie them on a 5mm cord with a slipknot  - the "wall flower". 

Good ol Cybele came up with the mesh bag idea. 😉

* The Heart Route spring 2025 - the heavy duty mesh bag caught under a sharp downward-pointing protuberence while hauling and tore. I got a lecture from the climbing ranger, but cited the above stats vis a vis the poop tube. 

I am unfamiliar with Tyvek but would like to learn more. 

If it works out to join you and help with Space,  I’ll share notes, a some tyvek mailers and some packets of baking soda/copper sulfate so you can see what you think. Not sure if the mailer or the chemicals has a bigger impact on managing smell, but both are cheap at any rate.

Sounds great! Charles and crew will be fixing pitches before I arrive around May 21-ish. 

Jim Hwrote:

Don’t overlook the role that the copper sulfate and baking soda play. I didn’t test the process without them, but it’s my understanding they contribute a lot to the lack of smell, and they’re cheap. I found a pound of copper sulfate pentahydrate for around $10 on Amazon, which is a lot of it considering how much the process actually uses.

No reason to buy it when you can harvest copper sulfate naturally from the cars parked at the village store

"Will Clean Battery Terminals for Food!!!"