Eldo rescue?

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

Hiking trails all over are marked with painted blazes. Its not rocket science... 

We love advocating for vandalism, huh.

Tim K wrote:

It's always curious where folks decide to draw the line. I'm with Nick. People dying getting hurt? Paint the fucking decent. If that ruins your experience, it's a you problem.

I mean, beyond it being explicitly against park regulations (correct me if I am wrong on that, Adam)... let's be very clear, the way Jack illustrates is just the way we've found to be quickest/simplest. It is not an official decent path by any means. There are tons of ways that will get you down safely. IMO, if you get hurt/dead coming down the slabs, that is absolutely a you problem.

I'm feeling fiery this morning, so will engage further. By your exact same logic, should we paint blazes the entire way up Freeway on the second flatiron? People get hurt/lost all the time on that, and folks have died, so let's paint it up! Would be literally no different than marking up the east slabs, both are about the same difficulty and style. Pound in some rebar and make it a via feratta while you are at it!

Tricky descents are a rite of passage. I don't care if people need rescue every day, that is on them. 

Oh but we have to save them from themselves?

No. We have to save the tricky descents from those who would pave them.

So the park doesn't have any marked trails? It's usually a big deal to get a trail approved but if you do then it's not vandalism it's park policy. Just like the road in and the existing signage you fuken moron. I also feel feisty this morning. 

Those people wanting to spray paint dots should probably rap instead of taking the slab descent

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

So the park doesn't have any marked trails? It's usually a big deal to get a trail approved but if you do then it's not vandalism it's park policy. Just like the road in and the existing signage you fuken moron. I also feel feisty this morning. 

Just going and marking the slabs without approval would be vandalism, but you're very right, I'm sure there is a path that this could be done legally. However, knowing the orgs who would govern such approvals (CPW, ACE), it would be effectively impossible to get approval for paint marking an arbitrary and subjectively selected decent path. I very much doubt that Jack's way is even the safest way down, it's just the best way to go if you're a dumbass who runs down the slabs multiple times per week. :)

Edit: I got comment capped, so just to respond to Live Perched below. With the massive use that Eldo sees (especially by less experienced climbers, due to proximity to large population centers, ease of access, abundance of easier graded routes), paired with the runout nature of much of the climbs there, small and/or weird gear, complex route finding, and tons of loose rock (eldo is choss, after all), the accident rate makes a lot more sense. It's a serious place, despite it being basically roadside.

The surprising thing about Eldo is how frequently climbers die there.  

Perhaps the AAJ has a tally.  Have there been 7 deaths since 2010?  The frequency seems high and weird for a place which is steps from the road.  

The east slabs descent is part of the route, and part of the outing if that is the descent someone chooses. People should research and prepare for the decent. My impression in the last 20-years climbing in the front range is that people now believe how hard they climb is a reflection of their competence, and neglect experience, route finding, decision making…
Eldo is complex and more involved than many other front range areas, and many raps/decents require as much thought as the climbs, even if the movement is much easier. The info needed, and the complexity of eldo is clearly written on MP and in the guidebook. There is a lot of info in pics/comments. To anyone who takes the time to research their descent, the info they need is available. If unsure, a walk past Wind Tower offers a clear view of the slabs, and opportunity to look for the weaknesses/route down. It should be incumbent on anyone planning to do the east slabs descent to prepare themselves, and there is no lack or resources for them.
Part of the draw to eldo is that it is not simple terrain. When I first climbed there in 2002, it felt like a big deal because we knew there were few bolted anchors, and the descents were not straight forward. The problem I see now is not a lack of marked descents, but climbers false belief that because they can climb 5.whatever they are competent, and that planning often stops at the top of the climb.
People will inevitably get stuck in the dark without headlamps, or in the rain when the slabs get slick, and marking the route will do little for either. If people really find themselves in trouble, there are enough trees and gear opportunities that they could rap down the slabs (assuming the know the general direction they’re headed). For those just unprepared, there is often chalk on the slabs leading the way. If the slabs are too complex there are two well documented rap routes off the other side that are easily accessible from the top of the slabs.
there is a lot of antiquated traditionalist thinking in climbing, especially in eldo. To me, replacing a key pin where there’s no good gear with a bolt is a no brainer, but marking a descent route on the east slabs seems crazy. The comment above about painting the route up freeway is not a false equivalence, nor would be paint-marking the climbs in eldo. The descent is part of the route, and people should be responsible for preparing themselves before jumping in. 

i don't have a big hangup either way, but i would be concerned that casual eldo hikers would see the markings and think it is a good trail to check out. the road to hell is paved with good trail marks, or something along those lines.

slim wrote:

i would be concerned that casual eldo hikers would see the markings 

I don't see how they could without getting FAR off any sort of non-climber trail.

There are well-documented rappel descents that work for the Naked Edge, Yellow Spur, and the other classics that top out the Redgarden towers. Climbers who feel comfortable choosing a solo descent should have the experience and wherewithal to handle their chosen path in whatever conditions they're facing on the day. Eldo for better and for worse provides the easiest roadside access to exceptional trad climbing to arguably the largest population center of climbers in the United States if not the world, so it's really just probabilistic that rescues are more often reported. 

Tim K wrote:

It's always curious where folks decide to draw the line. I'm with Nick. People dying getting hurt? Paint the fucking decent. If that ruins your experience, it's a you problem.

No need for that. Part of the fun is figuring it out for yourself. Relaying on big fluorescent painted circles to get down from the Redgarden wall is not a solution. 

choss pirate wrote:

Just going and marking the slabs without approval would be vandalism, but you're very right, I'm sure there is a path that this could be done legally. However, knowing the orgs who would govern such approvals (CPW, ACE), it would be effectively impossible to get approval for paint marking an arbitrary and subjectively selected decent path. I very much doubt that Jack's way is even the safest way down, it's just the best way to go if you're a dumbass who runs down the slabs multiple times per week. :)

Edit: I got comment capped, so just to respond to Live Perched below. With the massive use that Eldo sees (especially by less experienced climbers, due to proximity to large population centers, ease of access, abundance of easier graded routes), paired with the runout nature of much of the climbs there, small and/or weird gear, complex route finding, and tons of loose rock (eldo is choss, after all), the accident rate makes a lot more sense. It's a serious place, despite it being basically roadside.

It could be proposed to ACE action committee for Eldorado and be voted on. Very doubtful that it would pass. 

Live Perched wrote:

The surprising thing about Eldo is how frequently climbers die there.  

Perhaps the AAJ has a tally.  Have there been 7 deaths since 2010?  The frequency seems high and weird for a place which is steps from the road.  

It’s a very unique place. The movement and protection is very unique and requires utmost attention and skill. 

A few thoughts:

I can only think of two climbing fatalities since 2007 - one on the Bastille Crack, one on the Yellow Spur. But I'm sure not privy to everything, take that with a grain of salt.

Rescuers pay the price for folks that don't prepare for their descents. I don't know if that's more common occurrence in Eldo than elsewhere in the front range. But it is a bummer to see a vital resource in use for an avoidable situation. (I've f*ed up too - I was 16 or so and got back to the gate on the Bluebell Shelter road just as RMR was about to use the universal padlock tool, about a half hour past sunset. Yes, there were still pterodactyls in the flatirons back then, whippersnappers.)

There's been a lot of thought and work on signage specifically for avoiding common Eldo climbing accidents, but I have no idea how to gauge what impact that signage has had. I can imagine that some terse signs on approaches to climbs with a history of benightings, or maybe in the bathrooms for a captive audience, might also have an impact.

The hawk-eagle boulder problem seems to stop most non-climbers from wandering anywhere near the east slabs. I don't think marking the east slabs descent would draw non-climbers. I do think that lack of headlamps is a common element for Eldo benightings.

I seen conversations have an impact - I think there's a lot of value in old school Eldo climbers gently checking in with self-evident tyros.

Tim K wrote:

Let's Go! :)

My argumentative mind wants to scream, FALSE EQUIVALENCE!!!

...but I hear you and why I framed it as a where one chooses to draw the line. And IMHO (not devil's advocate or troll position) the local community should decide these things, work with the local government agencies and collectively make changes where appropriate. Everyone is self responsible and should live there lives accordingly...

Umm. Her Dee Der!   that’s exactly what we do in Eldo. Every year the community gets to give input and the Eldo ace committee gets to decide and the state park makes the final decision. So thanks for the brilliant suggestion Einstein.  

...but my vote is painted dots are unobtrusive for what they gain in this instance where we read about an accident once a month in eldo

As we lower the bar for access, we invite more and more less experienced people. Does this really make us safer-case in point mussies, and the accidents that have ensued since their introduction.

Plus, this so-called painted trail would be down third fourth and fifth class terrain. . What if someone gets hurt following the marked trail? Is there any liability since the trail was marked?

Full disclosure, I've never climbed there. 

Awe shit. It’s a shame anybody anywhere can give an opinion on anything. Never mind. I shouldn’t have responded to you. You don’t have an opinion on this one that matters.  

Go back to advocating for more dog poop bags on your local bike path. 

Mike McHugh wrote:

I can only think of two climbing fatalities since 2007 - one on the Bastille Crack, one on the Yellow Spur. But I'm sure not privy to everything, take that with a grain of salt.

Also this on Wind Ridge, which was very well publicized & thoroughly discussed in the community: https://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201216198

There's been a lot of thought and work on signage specifically for avoiding common Eldo climbing accidents, but I have no idea how to gauge what impact that signage has had. I can imagine that some terse signs on approaches to climbs with a history of benightings, or maybe in the bathrooms for a captive audience, might also have an impact.

The most obvious signage I've seen about the dangers of climbing in Eldo is already right outside the bathrooms, so I don't know that there's a lot else to be done in that regard.

Tim K wrote:

Full disclosure, I've never climbed there. 

The East Slabs descent is one of several descent options from one of many rock formations in Eldo. Most of the Eldo descents I have done are complicated, non-obvious, and/or hazardous, as are many of the climbs and several of the popular approaches. As others have said, Eldo is one of those areas where it's especially important to do your research on both the climb and the descent. I often come down on the side of safety over tradition - I would support adding a few bolts to Snake Dike, come at me - but in this case I agree that making Eldo less intimidating would likely have unintended negative consequences. I think that's especially true as the metro Denver climbing population increases and more gym climbers filter into the outdoors.  

Kate Sedrowski wrote:

Also this on Wind Ridge, which was very well publicized & thoroughly discussed in the community: https://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201216198

I stand corrected. Embarrassed that I forgot about that one!

The most obvious signage I've seen about the dangers of climbing in Eldo is already right outside the bathrooms, so I don't know that there's a lot else to be done in that regard.

Yeah I got the grant for that sign & put the data together, ACE did the heavy lifting on content, and Shelley D from Neptune did the design and more editing. I'm just not sure it reaches a lot of people (and I need to get it reprinted after it cracked). I can imagine that a 5 bullet point sign above the TP rolls might reach additional folks with some time on their hands. I'm trying to think about things outside of cairning or marking descents that can contribute to a reduction in benightings, but spitballing on MP wasn't a good choice on my part.

I never suggested vandalism. I literally mentioned how hard it is to work with authority to get a trail approved. I will probably never climb in eldo again so I really don't care what you do . I did yellow spur 40 years ago and remember being intimidated by the decent but we lived so I should be in the never mark a trail camp but I have grown wiser in my old age. Seneca is a pretty good example. Old school trad venue yet they have several 4th class approaches/ decents marked with blue blazes. It's not rocket science. Suggesting that marking trails doesn't work and people will still get lost is simply the work of crusty assholes who don't like change and like to say no.