Best picks for xdreams for cold hard ice.

NateCwrote:

Has anyone laid eyes on the "Hard Mixte" pick? They don't give a great description on the website but if that pick climbs as well as the old Mixte pick on ice, it could be the solution everyone wants.

Tip angle looks different, but is it in a bad way for ice? 

Ellen Swrote:

isn't it crazy that CAMP just released a new version of the xdream but didn't address everyone's major complaint about xdreams...?

I suspect that for every person online who says you need $200+ picks to climb WI4, there are probably a bunch of people just happily/cluelessly out there climbing hard stuff on stock picks, none the wiser that aftermarket options even exist.  That's not to say that the aftermarket picks aren't good products, but it's easy to get the impression that you "need" certain upgrades, when the reality is that there are probably a lot of users who, when asked, would basically be like "I dunno, these stock picks seem fine."

Kyle Tarrywrote:

I suspect that for every person online who says you need $200+ of picks to climb WI4, there are probably a bunch of people just happily/cluelessly out there climbing hard stuff on stock picks, none the wiser that aftermarket options even exist.  That's not to say that the aftermarket picks aren't good products, but it's easy to get the impression that you "need" certain upgrades, when the reality is that there are probably a lot of users who, when asked, would basically be like "I dunno, these stock picks seem fine."

Several of the best ice climbers I know are much like you describe. Several have often argued that they prefer stock picks over expensive aftermarket picks.

I definitely don’t think one “needs” aftermarket picks to climb well or hard. If you feel like you get an advantage in some way, they can be worth it though.

Personally, I’ve found that Krukonogi and Beartooth Alpine picks didn’t place “better” than Petzl PurIce or the new BD I.C.E. pick, but they place with a little less energy for the same stick remove much easier and I feel like that saves me a ton of energy over the course of a big day. Something like that can be an advantage but it’s not a deal breaker. And since these small brands are basically unavailable, I’ll be back on stock picks on all my tools this year (when and if I get to climb ice.)

Ellen Swrote:

Tip angle looks different, but is it in a bad way for ice? 

Yeah the side profiles look like they could be ok for ice but there’s no information or pictures about the tip tapering or thickness. 

Talked to a couple friends who work at CAMP today and specifically asked them about the new Hard Mixte picks. 

They said that it is the same hard steel as the Total Dry 2.0 but is beveled and tapered to be a true mixed climbing pick. The longer beak than the old mixte/omni pick is supposedly very very good for scratching placements and small edges. It tapers in the last couple cms from 4.0mm down to (I think) close to 3mm and is beveled along the same length as well. I'm told that it swings into and places well in ice and is a very good ice climbing pick but does have some nuances to how you have to clean it. They said that it cleans best by sort of "reversing your swing." The exaggerated beak and the teeth along the top of the pick making a more traditional "lever it upward and yank out" cleaning style less effective and the tool can kind of get stuck. 

All in all, it's a pick that I'm really interested in trying. My preferences for climbing definitely swing toward technical mixed anyhow and this pick sounds like it could be really good for mixed routes, alpine routes and some general ice climbing. I'm going to get a set and report back here (once there's ice somewhere for me to climb as it's Dec 10 and currently 63degrees F at my house). 

Stock Mixed picks climb ice well and I have never broken one.  They sharpen easily and wear out quickly but they do not break ice climbing.   the X Dream grips are the best for not getting pumped. 

Nomic pure ice picks are the best. the skinny grip pumps faster INMOP.

NateCwrote:

Talked to a couple friends who work at CAMP today and specifically asked them about the new Hard Mixte picks. 

They said that it is the same hard steel as the Total Dry 2.0 but is beveled and tapered to be a true mixed climbing pick. The longer beak than the old mixte/omni pick is supposedly very very good for scratching placements and small edges. It tapers in the last couple cms from 4.0mm down to (I think) close to 3mm and is beveled along the same length as well. I'm told that it swings into and places well in ice and is a very good ice climbing pick but does have some nuances to how you have to clean it. They said that it cleans best by sort of "reversing your swing." The exaggerated beak and the teeth along the top of the pick making a more traditional "lever it upward and yank out" cleaning style less effective and the tool can kind of get stuck. 

All in all, it's a pick that I'm really interested in trying. My preferences for climbing definitely swing toward technical mixed anyhow and this pick sounds like it could be really good for mixed routes, alpine routes and some general ice climbing. I'm going to get a set and report back here (once there's ice somewhere for me to climb as it's Dec 10 and currently 63degrees F at my house). 

Thanks for the info. There’s definitely more of a bird beak in the hard Mixte that looks like cleaning it would be a nightmare. 

Matt Gravierwrote:

Thanks for the info. There’s definitely more of a bird beak in the hard Mixte that looks like cleaning it would be a nightmare. 

In my experience with kruk picks, which have a very similar “beak” it isn’t really an issue. This might be due to how thing the kruks are or perhaps the tiNi coating.

The motion to clean may be somewhat different, but I don’t really notice it.

I’m optimistic on the hard mixte picks tho…

New XDream picks fit onto the old version tool?

Ben Podborskiwrote:

New XDream picks fit onto the old version tool?

The new head as has the same geo as the old head and are compatible. The newer orange head has some weight relief and chamfering but should work with old picks and vice versa

Just bought the hard mixte picks, should hopefully get them by next week. I’ll report back how they perform compared to my beartooth picks. They’re thicker than the beartooth picks by .5mm at the tip, so I’m assuming they’re not going to do as well on ice but the mixed potential seems good. 

New pick definitely fits old tool.

Haven't use yet, when we stop getting a meter of snow per week, I'll put the skis away and take the tools for a walk.

Since my life purpose seems to be posting pick comparison pics on MP, here goes:

We all seem to focus on the thinness of the pick at the tip, which obviously makes a pick penetrate hard ice easier; but I haven't heard anyone discuss the geometry - specifically the relationship between the tip and the teeth.

Per the Art of Ice Climbing book (by Jerome Blanc-Gras and Manu Ibarra) the tip of the pick (P) should be the lowest point relative to the teeth, or "it is likely to pop out unexpectedly."

I'm not sure if I have ever owned a pick with point P as low as shown in this example, but the Hard Mixte pick has a relatively unique tip profile that I can't wait to try.

Here's my best attempt at mimicking line L with a white card:

 The Beartooth Scratchers had probably the highest P point new, and they were so non-durable that I think I raised that P point quickly due to filing required. Thus, for me, those picks went from being relatively good on hard ice to retired, super fast.

I have no idea what point I'm trying to make but the Hard Mixte pick geometry should make them climb differently, but can't to wait see if that difference is good or bad.

Anyone using Kuznia picks?  I enjoy the stock mixed picks but before commiting , I want to explore my options. Mainly ice but I the picks see thin top outs and rock fairly often. 

Here's the most pronounced beak I've ever seen - Grivel Vario Total Dry. I wouldn't want to have to extract this sucker from a good stick in hard ice!

I'd love to see the Hard Mixte laid over the top of Mixte/Ice/Omni/Kruk PXS/BTMS picks to see the overall differences in the pick angles.

Yes, tapering and thickness are major factors in how they'll climb ice, and the depth of the beak can be a factor, but really, all of this is dependent/determined by the overall angle of the pick itself. 

Patrick Cookewrote:

I'd love to see the Hard Mixte laid over the top of Mixte/Ice/Omni/Kruk PXS/BTMS picks to see the overall differences in the pick angles.

Yes, tapering and thickness are major factors in how they'll climb ice, and the depth of the beak can be a factor, but really, all of this is dependent/determined by the overall angle of the pick itself. 

You make a very good point. One of the reasons the olde mixte/omni is so good is that it has a perfect angle. 

TL/DR - another wall of words with some premature extrapolation about the Hard Mixte picks, but with some more pretty pick comparison pictures to look at when bored at work.

I have a few days on the new Hard Mixte pick but definitely not in cold, hard ice (does anywhere in Western NA have cold, hard ice now?), and not on mixed, so can't say anything that informed, but my guess is they won't be a great hard ice pick but could be a very good, all around pick (ice/mixed/alpine) with better durability than the old Mixte/new Omni.

I A/B'd with my favorite all around ice pick that I currently own (Kruk PX0) and they performed so similar that I couldn't tell a difference at first. However, during the thin top out on the FIRST pitch I led with them I bird beaked aka curled aka blunted the beak of the Hard Mixte while the Kurk was unscathed (yes, I swing with the force of a gorilla but I am pretty good at getting first sticks).

The bird beaking is hard to see in this photo and may seem nit picky but any pick with that sharp of a beak is probably not going to stay pointy that long even with the hard steel. Despite how minor the beaking looks, it was very challenging to file back confirming this Armox Advance steel stuff is WAY harder than standard Camp (or Beartooth) metal.

After a few pitches I did notice that the Hard Mixtes were penetrating slightly less well and were slightly harder to clean than the Kruks (emphasis on the slightly) but, again, this was softer, almost hero, ice so not the best test conditions. Besides the more aggressive beak, the the Hard Mixtes have bigger or more aggressive lower and upper mohawks than any ice pick I own so cleaning is just going to be harder for deeper placements.

Here are some comparison picks.

Top to bottom:

Kruk PXS00 (Stas edition, thinnest, best hard ice pick)

Kruk PX0

Hard Mixte

Old Mixte

Old Ice

Thickness view in same order right to left. Note how thick the Hard Mixte (middle) is before the taper at the tip. Due to the tip taper, they really didn't feel that thick. It's interesting that the stock Camp picks are as thin as PXS00 which explains why they climb ice so well new but reach retirement age so young.

Now regarding the angle question, I would need to take dozens of pictures to do this justice, but the angle of all these picks is basically identical, what changes is the length and the beak profile. This makes sense, because I swing exactly the same regardless of which one of these picks I'm using.

Hard Mixte over PXS00:

Hard Mixte over PXSO

Old, worn Mixte over Hard Mixte:

Enough for now, can't wait to try them on rock.

get a file and take the volume down on the first inch and 1/2 or so of the Mixte or ice picks.

you can easily make them as thin or thinner then Petzl Pur'ice 

Hand Tapered pic vs stock