Walkie Talkies Have Ruined Climbing for Me

When we were hiking Jackson peak we witnessed a party ski the north face. The 2nd to last person to drop in tomohawked the entire face and was motionless. The last person took a long time to join the rest of the party at the bottom. We were up on the ridge and could see what was happening but there was no possibility of communication. We did call 911 and stayed put for quite a while monitoring the situation and updating SAR. Pretty sure that the bottom of the face had no cell service. Eventually they started moving with the injured person being assisted by one person on either side. Not moving fast but moving. That was pretty much all that SAR wanted to hear. Great. They are self rescuing. Thank you.  I remember thinking at the time how useful it would be if there was a common emergency channel for back country adventures that everyone knew about like channel 19 on the CB. It would have been easy to switch to that channel and communicate. Us being up high we could have initiated a rescue if needed. 

Jabroni McChufferson wrote:

3. Making the plan of how to communicate. “ on belay” before you can’t communicate 

Yes. It isn't that hard.

What's wrong with just being engaged ALL the time and learning to understand all the movements of the rope? This is important communication! People should be actively learning this from the beginning. This is exactly why I am not in favor of "fix and follow". It seems right to me after receiving the proper support of an attentive belay while leading,  that I should return the favor, and be fully engaged with my partner while they follow. 

It is also entirely possible to manage a climb so that verbal communication is rarely even a minor issue, which provides other benefits as well. 

"I fear the day technology overlaps human interaction. We will then have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein. 

I'm not calling anyone an idiot, those allegedly were Einstein's words. But I believe therein is a relevant point. I also don't have anything against people using walkie talkies. But their use does diminish subtle skills that affect more than just the neccessary communication. Skills that positively affect safety, efficiency, and the enjoyment of being a partner.

Eric Craig wrote:

What's wrong with just being engaged ALL the time and learning to understand all the movements of the rope? This is important communication! People should be actively learning this from the beginning. This is exactly why I am not in favor of "fix and follow". It seems right to me after receiving the proper support of an attentive belay while leading,  that I should return the favor, and be fully engaged with my partner while they follow. 

It is also entirely possible to manage a climb so that verbal communication is rarely even a minor issue, which provides other benefits as well. 

"I fear the day when technology replaces human interaction, for we will then have an entire generation of idiots" Albert Einstein. 

I'm not calling anyone an idiot, those allegedly were Einstein's words. But I believe therein is a relevant point. I also don't have anything against people using walkie talkies. But their use does diminish subtle skills that affect more than just the neccessary communication. Skills that positively affect safety,  efficiency, and the enjoyment of being a partner.

Relieved to be judged still in possession of my intelligence, but someone has to transmit the happy news to my wife.  Nothing wrong with being engaged all the time, but radios tend to enhance engagement rather than limiting it, so I don't think Einstein has anything to complain about there.  Rope motions? You don't get much information from the subtle motions of the rope when the rope hasn't moved for the last several minutes.  And I seem to live in a different and possibly less competent world of climb management, having been in situations over and over and over again where both verbal communication and rope-tugging were utterly ineffective. High winds, thunderstorms, waterfalls.  Maybe all three together.  Just go to Eldorado Canyon on a nice spring day when the creek is running strong and listen to all the parties screaming their heads off without getting through to their partners. But you don't need adverse conditions.  You get to the top of the crag and find you have to walk and scramble up and back to find an anchor. Verbal communication and rope signals won't cut it.  And then there's the crowded crag with people screaming on belay, off belay, take, slack, watch me---some days I'd need a studio full of signal processing equipment to sort out which shouts are from my partner and which from someone else, and reacting to one mistaken call could have a pretty bad result.

I don't think radios are going to lead to the atrophy of attentive belaying skills, because the devices themselves have already achieved that dubious goal. Those subtle rope motions are nowadays filtered out by the use of guide belay plates, and even more recently, Microtraxions for belaying. If there is a need to complain about technology interfering with the subtle communication signals, this is where the rubber hits the road.  Plate belays suck for the second. (At this point, many climbers have only experienced plaquette belays and so don't even know their belay sucks.)  The follower is constantly being pulled, can't step down without weighting the belay, and sometimes is even dislodged by a diagonal rope or one running over a ceiling that won't deliver any slack.  Yes, an attentive belayer can eliminate all these effects, but one of the points of these belay devices is to reduce the need for belayer attention so they can "multitask." The belayer isn't attending to subtle rope motions, they're taking in the slack until there is no more, having a bite of their sandwich, and then ratcheting up more slack. Ironically, a radio might be the best, if imperfect, antidote to the resulting unpleasant scenarios, rather than being an agent for diminished attention capacity.  

Argh, I'm sounding like a radio salesman and plaquette-denier.  I've climbed for more than a half-century without radios. Also without harnesses, belay plates, kernmantel ropes, sticky rubber, cams, and Gore-Tex. And most certainly without battery-powered drills.   None of these things are necessary.  But we climb with a whole lot of stuff that isn't necessary, because it makes things easier and safer. Along the way, certain "primitive" skills might decline or be lost.  I've caught a factor 2 fall with a hip belay.  Have my hip belaying skills declined to the point where I can't do that? Maybe, but technology is going to keep me from ever finding out, and I don't think I'm any less safe because of it.  Technology isn't universally bad.  Einstein would have been enormously helped by modern computing power. If his mental arithmetic ability declined, I don't think he'd miss it.

With my impaired hearing, I own a set of radios and hand one to my partners.  Many turn their noses up, but accept the imposition as the price of climbing with me, it being too late in the day to find an audiologically intact partner.  Interestingly, after a day or two, about half of them have bought radios for themselves. Some things just make sense.

I have no doubts whatsoever Mr. Goldstone about your credentials.  My apologies.

You have many good points.

JW, thank you for your kind words. I have recently done a bit of TRSoloing. A few day worth. Maybe you can help me, what do you do when you really want to step down a bit? I mean, I have it working fine if I am just going up up up. Except that even for that, the belay is a little snug for my taste. I am using a Lift for my primary. It doesn't know I really dislike being tugged on. Please realize that easily 90%+ of my climbing I lead. And most of my upper belays from partners have been excellent. But maybe I would benefit from some further TRS advice. Thank you. 

Caleb wrote:

We’re all entitled to leave a climbing area and avoid other climbers, but some folks are really piling on the bad vibes.

There’s a lot of annoying things people do at crags.  But my experience isn’t sacrosanct.  Sometimes I need to pet the crag dogs, chill with the babies, listen to the crag speakers, and maybe take some beta from a stranger.  There are good parts to all those things.  

Ease off on the petty grievances.  That’s the spirit of selfishness at the route of your own complaints.  It just ruins it more.

"It's all in your dome, man..."

Washington is a troll farm, must be all the rain!!

Eric Craig wrote:

 My apologies.

All good Eric!

Eric Craig wrote:

Are you making fun of me?

It's ok if you are. A good day for it in fact.

Not at all, my friend. 

However, I find it a humorous analogy when tilting at windmills.

:)

The times I use a walkie talkie are the only times I don't get judged for using terms such as "niner, 10-4 good buddy" and of course saying "copy" and "over" constantly.  over.

JW,  we have different goals regarding use of self belay on a fixed line. And probably different desires to fulfill from climbing. Which is completely fine. I imagine there is common ground too. I do appreciate your response to my questions!

HUH???!!!

I am not sure what a windmill monkey is, that's a new one on me.

I never climbed with Werner, but have once been on the same route as he, and adjacent routes a couple times. A German fellow climbing with Werner on one of those occasions just looked at me and said, in accent, "Werner Braun, crack climbing machine ". And that tells the the true story. Werner and I played chess a couple times. 

I knew Merry a bit too. I wasn't her favorite person, due to some unfortunate Yosemite Mountaineering School politics, which I should have, but didn't, stay out of. I should add that those kind of issues weren't common. It was a good place to work.